Sunday, July 14, 2013

And the media has delivered the lesson...

Stay in the car, America.

Forget your neighbors' barbecue grills getting overturned and bicycles getting stolen. Don't worry about the graffiti getting sprayed on the neighborhood walls. Ignore the cries of that woman getting stabbed on the apartment steps.

Pull the blinds. You think you're a cop or something?

Don't get involved. The potential social and legal costs are too high.

Stay in the car, America.

Me? You'd better cool believe I'm staying my ass in the car. The media has taught me well that I am not my brother's keeper. We hire people to do that these days.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh, there's another lesson.

Shoot from a distance.

Tam said...

Sorry, not much into cold-blooded murder myself.

greg said...

Well, that's not the lesson I learned.

Tam, I'm not sure I 100% with everything you wrote. I would like to think that there is some difference between getting involved in an 'active' situation and following a guy because you think he may be suspicious, and confronting him even after you were told to lay off. Of course...that's all opinion I formed after being force fed stuff by the MSM, so, I could be skewed.

The biggest lesson here is that the civil courts are your biggest enemy any more...THAT 'wrongful death' case is going to have OJ like numbers.

George said...

"We don't encourage self help."

Ancient Woodsman said...

If even oppressed 'Americans' had stayed in their homes after a martial-law total lockdown, the younger Brother Kablamazov might not have been found when he was.

The people that we hired to find him couldn't find him, even with all of their expensive toys and bluster. Joe Homeowner got the 'all clear' from Capt. Thomas Preston's descendants and proceeded to do what any commoner would - check out the yard.

Yes, if we listened to the press and did what we were told, certainly things would be a lot easier for all of those higher ups who know so much better than do we ignorant savages. How dare we be independent thinkers? How dare we take independent action?

Yeah, you're probably right...move along. Nothing to see here.

Bubblehead Les. said...

Having had to rely on the "Hired Help" in the past, yet still needing to shoot at a 17 year old "Troubled Youth" to stop the situation while waiting and waiting and waiting, I'll just keep another old Personal Policy in effect: Screw the Media.

Bubblehead Les. said...

Oh, for any one who has knowledge of the Florida Gun Laws: does this mean Zimmerman gets his CCW back? And his Kel-Tec? And gets his Record Updated so he can use the 4473 to buy something better than a Kel-Tec? He might need some more Capacity in the Future, you know.

Anonymous said...

" confronting him even after you were told to lay off."

My blood pressure is spiking.

This is not how it went down. Martin confronted Zimmerman.

Tam is right. Never got out of the boat.

Rob

Tam said...

greg,

"and confronting him even after you were told to lay off."

1) He was not told to lay off.

2) He confronted Martin's fist with his nose from ambush.

As the defense painfully demonstrated to America at great length, there was no "told to lay off" and the only person who did any "confronting" is the decedent. The media has successfully promulgated its lies, however.

Alien said...

"Sorry, not much into cold-blooded murder myself."

Would you classify a .30 caliber round from the 5th floor that stopped Winston Moseley from murdering Kitty Genovese as "cold-blooded"? Were I to find myself in Ms. Genovese's situation I'd be grateful for someone with a major caliber Model 700 and the coolness to successfully apply it.

I will agree that there is a great deal of empirical evidence that "staying in the car" is the overwhelmingly smart thing to do. With the great mass of the media so strongly opposed to any individual action, and their eagerness to crucify any individual action with which they disagree, not even pulling the car out of one's own driveway is certainly the prudent course.

While the climax of the Martin/Zimmerman affair came very quickly, as those sort of things are wont to do, despite Zimmerman's calls for help, only one resident bothered to go outside to investigate, and he quickly returned inside to seek Authorized Assistance From The Government. So, I'd say the "stay in the car" philosophy is well on its way to being the default.

JD(not the one with the picture) said...

Le cri de quatorze Juillet: rester das la voiture!

TinCan Assassin said...

Fuck it. I'm doing the right thing according to the lights God gave me. Even if they fry me I will still go before God with a clean conscience.

Any punishment inflicted for doing the right thing will expiate my other sins.

greg said...

Well, and as I said in my intial post, it's possible(approaching probable) that I allowed myself to be skewed by the MSM, and in my efforts to avoid the case, it's possible I missed the defenses main defense that Zimmerman was heading back to his car before the confrontation happened.

So, that's why I usually just shut my mouth and respond with a +1 on issues like this.

Bob said...

Remember the old saw "Better to be judged by 12 (or, in Zimmerman's case, 6) that carried by 6? Zimmerman just lived through that scenario. Don't imagine he gets much satisfaction at the result, though. What's the alternative, though? Let the neighborhood slumify without fighting back? Flee to a better neighborhood? To paraphrase Margaret Thatcher on socialism, eventually you run out of safe neighborhoods to flee to.

JD(not the one with the picture) said...

Crap, I even proofread that twice. Should be dans, not das ... and I was feeling so clever.

Erin Palette said...

The lesson that *I* have learned from all this is that if I am ever in a self-defense shooting scenario, I am throwing all the race/gender/culture/ sexual preference cards FIRST.

"Officer, he clearly attacked me because I am a white gothic lesbian. He hated me. I could see it in his eyes."

This entire goat-rope has taught me that whomever is accused has to waste valuable resources proving a negative, and if I don't put that onus on my attacker it will be put on me.

Angus McThag said...

I don't remember who said it.

The police are not there to protect me from the criminals. The police are there to protect the criminals from my bloody vengeance.

The sad situation we're finding ourselves in is that the police and courts are no longer holding up their end with regards to catching and punishing criminals.

There would have been no need for a neighborhood watch if the criminals were being caught.

The police and courts are doing a bang up job catching and punishing all manner of malum prohibitum on otherwise honest folk.

Its only a manner of time before people decide to forgo the cops altogether as they've become an impediment to justice not a facilitator. That'll mean lynch mobs.

It could still be averted and avoided. I doubt that it will be.

Robin said...

Greg said "The biggest lesson here is that the civil courts are your biggest enemy any more...THAT 'wrongful death' case is going to have OJ like numbers. "

There aren't going to be any civil cases. That is why the Martin's pushed for Zimmerman's arrest. So they could extort the homeowner's association before the trial. Now that Zimmerman has been acquitted he can go back and get Stand Your Ground immunity from the civil suits. Omara said as much at his press conference.

This case has made history for Corey and Rionda because half of America thinks they are incompetent because the failed to get a conviction. The other half feels that they are corrupt because the case should never have been brought in the first place.

Knotthead said...

After nearly fifty years, I guess Kitty's neighbors are finally vindicated...


...at least in MSNBC land.

sepulvedasrevenge said...

Yep stay in the car. Your pistolero/patriot buddies my mock you on teh interwebz but your family, wallet and future will thank you.

Stephen said...

Seems some have taken a long cold drink from the medias cool aid cup.

RandyGC said...

...half of America thinks they are incompetent because the failed to get a conviction. The other half feels that they are corrupt because the case should never have been brought in the first place.

Those are not mutually exclusive conditions.

Old NFO said...

Yep, NOW it's going to get interesting for the 'next' person that goes down the self defense shooting rat hole...

og said...

Unable to find a way to keep guns out of the hands of Americans, Democrats have instead found an effective way to keep Americans from using them.

billf said...

Tam,at the risk of arguing with you on your own blog,'no thanks'.Stay in your car (house,neighborhood,etc)might be the safe,smart way to respond,but it's not the right way.If we all keep our heads down and never interfere when something's wrong,more things are bound to go wrong.I'm usually a MYOB guy,but only if the other guy isn't breaking the law or violating someone else's rights.I'm not advocating 'looking for trouble',but I'm damn sure not about to run away and hide from it,either.I am in favor of neighborhood watch,stand your ground,annd castle doctrines,even when applied to your neighbor's house(stuff,wife,kids,etc)The "people we pay"to do that for us usually can't protect us,only sometimes can catch the bad guy,and only sometimes can prosecute him.If you think you should stay in the car and let the cops handle it,do you think you should turn on your guns,too?I didn't think so.

Buzz said...

Erin, those of us with no "insert historically or politically-correct oppressed demographic" card to play, we're stuck in our cars when justice is played out by media with an agenda instead of a metaphorical blind lady.

I could technically play the native American card, but enough German blood blued my eyes and bleached my hair to nullify.
Not only that, but "them injuns" don't get much cardplay after Custer and casinos race through people's minds.

Tam said...

billf,

Sometimes there is hyperbole for the sake of making a point or venting here at VFTP.

VFTP is not to be construed as legal advice, or any other type of advice for that matter.

Mike_C said...

The way most of the news media have skewed their presentation of the facts is shameful, so I'm not surprised Greg (and many others) have doubts about GZ's actions. Defense atty Mark O'Mara (who comes across as a hell of a class act, BTW) skewers the news media in his post-trial Q+A session. He was going to let it lie, but some newsie insisted on getting her "one last question" in, and he blasted her and the press in general. Worth listening to.

Some pertinent facts
1. "We don't need you to do that" was NOT an instruction to stay in his truck. It was a standard statement intended to limit police/NEN liability. "Don't need you to" is not equivalent to "do not do." Besides, the NEN (non-emergency number) operator kept asking GZ "what is he doing now" etc after her statement, thereby tacitly endorsing his actions.

2. Martin had plenty of time to get home and safely away from the scary cracker rapist. He had several minutes to cover about 400 feet. The 6-foot plus child almost certainly got home during the time GZ could not see him. Wherever TM was, he then doubled back to confront and sucker punch the adult 5' 7" obese Zimmerman.

3. Zimmerman took at least 40 seconds (that's just the interval on the Lauer 911 call) of being badly beaten before firing. Pure self defense, if delayed in its application. This was reinforced in court by prosecution witness Capt. Alex Carter, JAG, one of GZ's previous law instructors, and incidentally a black man himself. I despise how this has been used to argue about SYG, as SYG had nothing to do with it. A guy in the office last week tried to say that TM was using his SYG rights in confronting GZ. Also doesn't fly. TM had time to get home and probably did get home. (Rumor is that the GPS data from TM's cell phone are mysteriously missing.) If you are able to get to safety, then voluntarily re-enter the conflict zone, you can't invoke SYG.

@Les, some comments on a legal blog last night indicated that GZ already got his Kel-Tec back. (Don't know about the CCW.) This apparently came out in an interview by Piers Morgan of GZ's brother Robert Zimmerman Jr. I have to hunt down the interview on Youtube or somewhere. It seems that RZ Jr tore Morgan a number of new bleeding orifices.

RevolverRob said...

Well, I guess I will disagree with you, billF.

I hate neighborhood watches and I don't want to have the responsibility associated with having to take care of anyone besides my wife, my family, and myself. And certainly I don't care about anyone's "stuff". As far as I'm concerned the number 1 reason for instituting castle doctrine, stand your ground, and concealed carry is so EVERYONE can be responsible for their OWN safety, not so I can be. I am personally unwilling to be the protector of the world, that's not my job.

If my community formed a neighborhood watch. I would respectfully ask them to leave me alone and out of it. In fact, I don't even know my current neighbors names and shocking as it may be to some, I like it that way. I advocate personal responsibility and being left alone over anything else.

That said, I think GZ got the correct verdict. Should he have stayed his ass in the car? YES, end of story. But regardless his motivations were not malicious or violent and TM's were. I believe GZ was attacked, witness testimony and physical evidence supported that narrative.

-Rob

Weer'd Beard said...

Somebody once told me "Never draw your gun for ANYBODY you aren't willing to go to jail for."

That has never been truer today!

Zimmerman almost went to jail, and has had his life permanently up-ended for a neighbor who he likely couldn't even name.

Its sad, but its true. If I'm in the mall and I hear gunshots and I'm between the shots and an exit, I don't care if I'm the only armed good guy for 100 miles...you're on your own.

billf said...

Tam,Sorry if I misunderstood your intent,sometimes my sarcasm detector is turned way down,and I hear everything literally.
Revolver;you and I are not on opposite sides,I am also a 'mind my own business'type,but if I see someone breaking into my nieghbor's house with a crow bar,I will at least call the police,or I might go ask what they are doing.But it's entirely to each his own.You might be familiar with the 'sheep,sheepdog,wolf,story'.The sheepdog runs off the wolf whether the sheep want him to or not,and the sheepdog doesn't try to convince more sheep to become sheepdogs.But, the sheep all benefit,as I'm sure you would if you were my neighbor,and I helped you out.You don't owe me for that,it's gratis.

Greg Tag said...

I must say that I am surprised and gratified by the verdict. I suspected that the race-baiters of the world would overwhelm the justice system in Florida- the prosecutors certainly seemed to be working against "justice".

In this case, the machinery of the justice system in Florida seemed to be operating on behalf of the demands of " Critical Race Theory", which posits that white people ( or those who identify as such) are automatically racists, and every action they take vis-a-vis a non-white is motivated by that racism.

Mr. Zimmerman was having the snot beaten out of him by a man who was six inches taller, fit, athletic, enraged and criminally inclined - the very image of a "gangsta thug". he could not escape, as he was pinned to the ground by an assailant who followed MMA.

Numerous thoughts likely went through Zimmerman's head - "will he make me lose consciousness and then find my gun"? " Will he kill me from smacking my head against the concrete?"

I dont know Florida law, but Ill bet it is similar to Texas, in Texas , PC Chapter 9 says if you are in "reasonable fear for your life", or if you are having "deadly force" used against you, you may respond with deadly force. Fists certainly can be deadly force; having a your head slammed into a fixed concrete object such as a sidewalk is clearly application of "deadly force", and Z certainly was in "reasonable fear" for his life.

This is not about self-defense. This whole thing is an attack on the Second Amendment, and an attempt to de-legitimize concealed carry as well as being an election year ploy by the Obama operation to maintain the urban black vote.

The jurors exhibited great courage.
I hope the prosecutors are sanctioned for misconduct.

Regards

GKT

perlhaqr said...

Mike_C: "We don't need you to do that" was NOT an instruction to stay in his truck.

Especially since it was said after he was already out of the truck. And GZ's reply was "Ok". At which point (since the confrontation occurred closer to GZ's truck than the place where GZ lost sight of Martin)he presumably complied with the recommendation to break off pursuit.

Sorry, I've been having this fight on FB a lot today. It's really pretty amazing how many people there "know" facts about this case that just aren't so.

Ed said...

always remember that anything that you say or do may be used against you in a court of law or the court of public opinion via the media.

Why would Travon Martin go after the "crazy ass cracker"? Because he could? Because of a perception of differing abilities, not anticipating that George Zimmerman would be armed and would offer armed resistance? Remember that only a around one million of Florida's nineteen million residents have Concealed Carry of Weapons permits. Consider how many of the total population are adults, the odds are still that only on the order of one out of ten eligible have the CCW permit, but many still do not carry. Then again, some who are ineligible carry anayways.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/28441/ccw-permits-for-florida-women-older-than-65-leap-600-percent-in-past-decade/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/14859-florida-update-concealed-carry-permits-up-violent-crime-down

http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/knockout-game-victims-eye-kicked-out-of-socket/

http://online.wsj.com/article/APa2d6bf76647e475a9d4576667abf4dda.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/02/knockout-game-killer-gets-life-sentence-for-st-louis-attack/

shovelDriver said...

"even after you were told to lay off"

So if one member of a group of criminals - and what else can you logically call most law enforcement gangs nowdays - says you oughta lay off, you're obligated to bow and scrape and slavishly obey?

Remember, even the dispatcher testified that there was and is no lawful authority to tell a private citizen what to do in the same circumstances.

precision270 said...

Tam,

I realize the price Zimmerman paid. I also know that my betters (the Founding Fathers) pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor. I hope to have a portion of that in me. That drives me out of the car and if it comes to it, drives me to deadly force.

BR said...

So, when do you think the federal "civil rights" trial will start.

Anonymous said...

RevolverRob and Wee'rd Beard:

You guys hit "send" at exactly the same time, independently saying essentially the same thing. Everything you said could have come from me, and is precisely what I meant in commenting on Tam's previous posts when I said "not guilty...of murder or manslaughter anyway."

Nothing Mr. Zimmerman did should be taken as a model of "armed citizen" behavior...excepting of course at the end when he did what he had to do to survive. He's damn lucky to be alive and free, and as others have said his life is altered forever, and not for the better.

Taking R.Rob's point further, the very best approach to helping your neighbors is to help them help themselves; encourage capable personal responsibility by fighting tooth and nail to beat down any infringement of his -and your- right to defend yourself.

But deadly defense has to be the last resort; prior to that, retreat, retreat, retreat. You can bet GZ wishes he had done exactly that.

pdb said...

Curious how TPTB are denigrating neighborhood watches and community policing right at a time when citizen involvement (due to the fruits of their policies, and tight PD budgets due to gigantic union-fueled pension promises) is more important than ever.

Kristophr said...

Stay in the car.

The car has far more foot-pounds than any pistol.

Tire-tracks on the perp for the win.

Anonymous said...

You all are missing the poinmt od this trial.

The higherups pushing the prosecution NEVER expected to win this case (although id they did it would be pure gravy).

They wanted Florida Burning. Within the next week there will be abill introduced in teh Florida houese (for the children) to limit "stand your ground" and other self defense.

Joe

SinEater said...

"Tire-tracks on the perp for the win."
This.
Although I do believe exactly as TinCanAssassin stated, with the condition that the conflict is about someone coming to harm as opposed to someone losing some stuff. (with the understanding that I have a .308 in the truck so I would probably still at least partially follow Tam's advice)
I believe that I would just have to take one for the team.
Buzz, if you have European blood then your people were a victim of invasions from Africa for *thousands of years* BEFORE CHRIST WAS BORN. If you look far enough back you can virtually link ANY race to victimization by someone. You can then cheerfully play the race card. And it isn't like the people trying to play the race card themselves are all that:
A. Knowledgeable about history
B. Bright.

sobriant74 said...

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Tam is using some sarcasm, and some world weary bitterness.

I'm so disappointed in modern culture, this is just another straw on the camels ever sagging back.

Bread and circuses.

Joat said...

Tam,
VFTP is not to be construed as legal advice, or any other type of advice for that matter.

If I can't get legal advice from blogs, where should I get advice? Lawyers cause problems than they solve.

Sean said...

Many of my peers (most neither gun or sheepdog types of any sort), scolded me for how I handled a recent indicident when two punks started stealing random items in our neighborhood.

The issue they had wasn't me just calling the fuzz, but that I followed them (from 50-70 yards) for a couple blocks and gave a precise location to dispatch.

It resulted in two arrests and one of suspects had prior burglary charges.

I choose not to let my neighbor go to hell, but your mileage may vary.

Anonymous said...

"You'd better cool believe..."

Love that term; used to use it quite a bit back in the day when my contemporaries (buncha rednecks) were saying "Ah heard dat!".

But I'll be damned if I know the etymology; a google search turns up mostly you, for this post and several comments at THR and TFL from 10-13 years ago.

Where'd it come from? If not historical origin, at least in your personal lexicon?

billf said...

anon 12:24,Good question.I have never heard it before,and I just thought Tam was freelancin' a little,but it sounds good.
C'mon Tam,fill us in.
Billf

mikee said...

Way back in the 1980s or so in Houston a Laotian who moved there after the Vietnam War ended noted a man breaking into his car. Words were exchanged, but the thief kept on with his attempt to steal the car. The war veteran shot the thief with his rifle, from the safety of his upstairs bedroom window. He was tried and convicted of some kind of felonious homicide.

Such obvious injustices as that led to changes in Texas law such that recently another Houstonian saw his vacationing neighbor's home being burgled. He called 911 and asked for police, but interrupted his call long enough to shoot the thieves as they left that house and crossed his yard loaded with loot belinging to his absent neighbor. This despite the dispatcher telling him again and again to stay inside & not get involved. No billed by the grand jury, it was ruled a legal shooting.

Today in Austin a man was convicted of aggravated assault (8 to 30 years, I believe they said could be his range of sentences). He was guilty of throwing one sucker punch which caused another man to fall, hit his head and eventually die. They ran that news item all morning between talk show callers complaining about Trayvon Martin being shot simply for punching Zimmerman.

The pendulum swings, and swings and swings. What is needed is a good spot to hang it from, so the swinging does not extend from reality to farce and back, but rather stays centered on reality.

mariner said...

Sometimes, if only very briefly, the pendulum passes through reality on its way from farce to farce.

"Not Guilty".

Light29ID said...

Tam,

I cross posted this over at the "rott. http://nicedoggie.net/?p=8629#comment-38776

Anonymous said...

Some of us don't have that option.

"Officer, he clearly attacked me because I am a straight white male. He hated me for my white privilege. I could see it in his eyes."

not gonna get a sympathy acquittal in the court of public opinion.

Thomas F said...

Seriously, you all have 5th amendment rights. Don't talk to the police. The police are not there to help you.