"Hey, Tam! Did you hear about the new Gruntchunder A2 9mm that Nocturne Avia Imports is importing from Lower Slobbovia? Chuck Rockhard in Great Big Gun Monthly said its trigger reset is even shorter than his best 1911s and it has a bore axis lower than any other pistol on the market and they're sure to be a huge success! What do you think about 'em?"I don't think about 'em. I mean, if you want to run out and buy one, fine, but if you fall off that rock and break your leg, don 't come running to me in five years complaining that you can't find holsters or spare mags.
I don't understand the urge to rush out and be an early adopter for every oddball new bottom-feeder that turns up on the market. For every Glock or HS-2000 that eventually becomes a sales success, there are dozens of flops destined to be curiosa and answers to the firearm owners version of Trivial Pursuit, like the Vektor CP1 or the Bernardelli P-01.
Of course, as the continued existence of Steyr M owners' clubs proves, sometimes the obscurity is the attraction...
47 comments:
Nocturne Avia, eh? She shore do talk purty, don't she?
There is survivorship bias even in pistols.
I'll see your early adopter and raise you a late majority or even laggard:
http://www.brickolore.com/2012/12/s-m-fashionably-late.html
Tam won't buy one hot off the presses,she'll wait 30 years ,buy one at the fun show,and put it with her other obscure pistols.
Billf
At first I thought he was wearing earplugs. Shame
Also reminded me of this.
http://www.weerdworld.com/2012/gun-hipster/
Nice portrait. What an edgy dude, cloaked in mystery, an enigma even unto himself. Dig the tats. Wicked pissa.
And of course the "Oh this gun? Yeah it was made UpperSoblania, you've probably never heard of it, it doesn't exist anymore. So it's totally vintage."
Now that you mention it, there is a certain amount of amusement gained by referring to my Steyr M40 as "the *other* Austrian plastic pistol!"
TDE Auto-Mag Model 180 .44AMP in a Safariland 101 shoulder rig. Mack Bolan approved.
Colt All-American 2000.
I rest my case.
Well, I suppose also the Grandpower K100 fits Tam's description to a T, eh?
@og That survivors bias article was massively interesting to read and contemplate, thanks for posting!
Tam, you mean you haven't tried my latest design? It's the Glockenspiel 9000, has four MIL-STD 1913 rails, integral mount for MRDS, integral laser grip, uses proprietary 40-million round box magazines, and fires the .327 Magnum. Great gun, we'll be shipping soon.
On a more serious note, it's a tough world, the gun world. A couple of friends and I have been contemplating getting into the manufacturing side of the game, but we've been limited by two factors. A) Identification of a "niche" market that is not sufficiently over filled with competitors. B) The R&D cash outlay necessary to develop a better product. In a world where there are a billion 1911s and AR15s...where does one innovate without the greatest risk of failure?
-Rob
For obscure Austrian plastic pistols, how about the GB?
This post cries out for Hipster Kitty!
Shootin' Buddy
Og,
Yes, I'd read that. It is a fascinating article.
It is only very peripherally related to what I'm talking about here, though.
@Og, @Tam: I'm actually much more interested in survivorship bias in self defense training. Do most gunfights happen the way we think they do, or are those just the circumstances where someone is going to have a chance to use their gun before they get knocked out?
I find out new guns are released by the INGO forum calls for "Does anyone know where to find a holster for a Blaster X?"
Almost as bad as the young guys working for me and their addiction to Cell phones. "OMGosh...Apple has come out with a 5.11123087...I gots to have one...never mind I have to pay full price cause I just got the 5.1123086 a month ago...the 5.11123087 is WAY better..."
One guy's girl only agreed to marry him if he stopped the madness of getting a new phone every two or three months...
I was making the point that guns are a pretty mature technology in another forum. We're not seeing a lot of fundamental game changers in the firearms arena. There's innovation, sure, but mostly it's in accessories, materials, and otherwise doing what is already done, just every so slightly better in a way that provides a small improvement (but is really expensive). Nothing is really changing how guns work.
And some guy goes and pulls out his Shadowrun fourth edition Arsenel sourcebook and says what about biometric guns, caseless ammo, inline barrels (WTF?), smart targetting, etc? They're all in development now, doncherknow?
Sure, so was the Dardick pistol and the gyrojet. I think there's a easy way to tell when an firearms innovation is a game changer: either you get really rich, or everyone else waits until the patent runs out and they all jump on the band wagon and every other display at the NRA convention is someone's implementation of that idea with another set of rails bolted on.
Tirno,
" inline barrels (WTF?)"
KRISS/S&W "staple gun"
I once almost bought an obscure Euro .32 ACP pistol that had been on the local gun store's consignment shelf for months. Not a Star, not a Ruby, not an Astra, it was really anonymous. I looked at it under the glass every time I went in after that, even asked to hold it a few times more.
In the end, every time, I skipped it and one day it just was not there. Sort of like the man I met going up the stair, who wasn't there.
Then a few months later, on a complete whim, being flush with cash, I bought a Colt 1903 that, according to the counter guy, hadn't been in the store an hour. And I already had a perfectly nice Colt 1903 at home.
In some future year, decades from now, I suspect one of my kids will see a box-stock Glock Gen III G-19 advertised for sale and will snap it up, not understanding the irresistable urge my genetics have compelled within him to be a retrograde anti-hipster.
I guess I'm saying it works both ways.
Rarely being considered one of the "cool kids" does have it's advantages; you can wait till something has been proven.
If you're really smart (like Tam) you can wait till stuff is "so totally yesterday" - like say Smith wheelguns, and buy them at retail-price-from-the-last-generation.
"It is only very peripherally related to what I'm talking about here, though."
lol. I'm usually THRILLED when someone leaves a comment that can be remotely considered 'peripheral" or even "Tangential". have you forgotten the Comment Rules? lol.
Besides, tangential comments can turn a good discussion into a great one.
They can also turn it into a rambling, disjointed diatribe of irrelevant nonsense. Just not here.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
The Dardick pistol and the gyrojet, talk about a blast from the past.
I talked to a gent at the last show that is slightly older than me. He got to see a gyrojet fired. He said it was a real show.
On another tangent, a lot of people seem to think that because someone carries a gun, they think it's "best" and seem shocked when I say that I not only don't think the gun I carry is the "best", but that I don't even like it very much.
They rarely stick around for my explanation that, while I don't think it's the "best", I do think it's perfectly adequate, and that its ubiquity ensures I'm not likely to want for spare mags or options in sights, holsters, and other accessories.
Im tickled everytime i see anyone carrying a gun. Moreso if theyve gotten any training in its use.
So, how would my interest in the Tokarev design be categorized? Probably just as weird. The original platform does have a few things going or it. High vis sights, single action, all steel, single column magazine, lack of irrelevant safeties, modular construction. You can also find interesting "modern" variants that include hi-capacity and thumb activated safeties. Holsters and cleaning kits are available too.
What do you mean you don't have a left handed IWB for my Caracal?
Gerry
I carry a Colt 1903 auto.
Because John Moses Browning.
I'm starting to think that maybe I DIDN'T make a mistake in standardizing on 1911's (in .45 ACP) for the carry gun, truck gun, bike gun and house gun(s).
Geez, you can't find magazines or holsters for those things anywhere.
Back when I wuz young and po I carried a Tokarev. I think the Commies were on to something.
I have to admit, I enjoy reading about obscure guns (your other blog is a must read) but I never buy them. Same for new upstarts in the field.
I go with something that is proven and will work, which is why my edc is a nice gun, but it isn't my favorite pistol.
The safe queen with the pretty grips only gets taken on dates to the range, while the ugly one with the nitron finish thats been marred in multiple spots by my kydex holster and the oils from my hand leaves the house day after day.
You wanna be a hipster, knock yourself out. Its a mostly free country and your money is still worth something.
My interest in obscure pistols from strange places isn't that they're better than everything else; it's that (at least, used to be) you could pick up a very serviceable gun for cheap and shoot cases of cheap surplus ammo out of it.
The next step, of course, is that everyone catches on. And then someone starts a forum for enthusiasts of this pistol. And for a year or so, this pistol is everyone's answer to the question "what is the best pistol I can get cheap?" And someone else starts a website showing all the variants, and establishes that ones with a lanyard loop, and ones with an 'A' before the serial number, are collectible, and ones made in Slobovia Central Armory are better than the ones made in the Central Slobovia Armory.
And before you know it, people are buying them up, driving up the prices, and stockpiling the ammo, and then it winds up just being an idiosyncratic handgun that costs marginally less than non-idiosyncratic ones. And that's when I lose interest in them.
I'm still waiting for the next $109 Makarov or $99 Tokarev, but not holding my breath because those days are probably over.
Alath
Carmel IN
That reminds me, I really should've bought one of those Daewoo pistols back in the day.
(I mean, if I ever decide to carry, it'll be a common, reliable, well-known pistol, probably in .380, with easily found mags and parts.
But just for having? You know how that works.)
I like my CZ-52. :D
Perlhaqr, Alath, Critter, Matt,
That's not what I'm talking about.
A fifty+ year-old gun that was made by the millions, imported by the container load, and sold at gun shows by the shovelful may be a lot of things, but new and untested are not two of them. :)
Face it, your not a REAL gun hipster unless your gat shoots a cartridge that was last mass produced in the closing months of WW 1...
Is it wrong to desire a Bergmann 1910 or Steyr 1905 for EDC?
Hey, I often carry a Colt M1908 Pocket Auto ... but you've probably never heard of it.
;-)
The CZ 75 is obscure enough for me, thanks.
As to the CZ 52, yep, it's been around long enough to be thoroughly tested. That auxiliary trigger works pretty consistently...
(I hope I'm past the point that I think my gun is "the best gun" because it's my gun choice. I just like what works for me, but it may not be "the best" objectively or even the best for anyone else).
Rob (Trebor)
Hmm. I like obscure guns, wear glasses, goatee...
Apparently I'm a hipster. Who knew?
And my carry gun would be a Benelli B76, if I could find one.
Of course, the gun hipster that runs out to buy the latest and greatest is so totally over that Gruntchunder... he just sold it to buy that new Strumunddrang DeltaSEAL in the new .4613 Thunderkat that Rex Junket from "Guns & Bacon" is raving about.
The only new gun design I'm really interested in is the Chiappa Rhino. The price keeps me from even remotely considering it, though.
Not only have I heard good things about the felt recoil, but for some reason that big 2x4 of a grip feels PERFECT in my hand. Although I've never heard anything good about the trigger, so...
Of course, the guy in the meme picture really is the face of the next gun culture generation. . . [chuckle}
@Lazy Bike Commuter:
That trigger CAN be made to feel good. The trigger of the display model at SHOT Show the first year was decent. No idea why it has developed such a reputation. Production quality of the components may be an issue.
Also, no idea if those early versions were hand worked to get to that point, but any time you are dealing with pilot run/pre-production type mechanical assemblies, you can have hand fitting needed, or some sort of re-work. That's the purpose of early batches, to work the bugs out of the design, and the assembly process.
I have a vague recollection from later that they were talking about changing some of those trigger linkage parts to work better. That may indicate the design is very sensitive to small tolerance variations, which is never a good thing. That leads to expensive hand fitting, and/or lots of scrapped parts that can't be made to work.
The Detonics Combatmaster is as obscure as I have, and it is up for replacement with an XD45s.
Sad day for me. I spend a good amount of time sneering at hipster douchebags only to find out that I may be one. I own multiple Steyr pistols and a Benelli B80 (which is the B76, only in .30 Luger which earns me extra d-bag points I guess). :(
My .401 Herter's Powermag is making a comeback, I tell you.
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