Wednesday, August 24, 2011

A ≠ B

In the comments section of a post about Rick Perry at Snowflakes In Hell, someone wrote
"Rick Perry is a a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Unfortunately, many will look at his involvement in the recent prayer service as a sign that he is a true friend of liberty."
That made me blink for a second. Huh? What?

I had to reply:
That statement is as non-sequiturish as saying “…his involvement in the recent Little League game as a sign that he is a true friend of stamp collecting.”

Attendance at a prayer service is no more a marker of being a friend of liberty than attendance at a square dance is of being a friend of Chinese food. The two are completely orthogonal.
Attending a prayer service does not preclude being a friend of liberty, nor either is it an indicator of same. The two have not a thing to do with each other at all. It is as possible to pray for liberty as it is to pray people into cattle cars.

As it says in the Good Book: By their fruits shall ye know the friends of liberty, not by what they mouth while standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets and on the Sunday morning political talk shows, that they may be seen of men.

56 comments:

Bob said...

Tam: It's not often a blogger adds to my vocabulary, but you just did with orthogonal. Thank you.

Tango Juliet said...

You must be feeling better this AM.

:)

westofthewest said...

That prayer event that Perry staged a few weeks ago was a huge red flag for me. All I knew about Perry up to that point was his LaRue photo shoot but now I'm very skeptical.

Tam said...

Like my Matthew 7:20/Matthew 6:5 mashup? I'm rather proud of it, myself. :)

Joel said...

uh, yeah. To which good book do you refer, Tam?

Tam said...

Joel,

Got a preference?

westofthewest said...

>Like my Matthew 7:20/Matthew 6:5 mashup?<

I did get a smile at that. Great application of the scriptures right there.

og said...

Evaluating Perry's Liberty level by checking his Holy Spirit Oil is as meaningful as evaluating your right to own firearms because of someone else busting a cap in a neighborhood kid, or wearing a helmet because some ijit scraped his noggin ipen on some tarmacadam. it just doesn't make sense, like Chewbacca.

DJ said...

"Got a preference?"

I prefer The Book of Armaments. It was good enough for King Arthur.

Robert said...

But when Perry's "Holy Spirit Oil" level is at a point where he decides that liberty is only for those who follow the "One True Faith - TM", then I have a problem with it. I'm afraid that his is dangerously close to that point.

John A said...

Indeed.

So he was at a "prayer meeting." Heck, Pres. Obama attended one church for some twenty years, did that make him a hero of liberty?

og said...

"I'm afraid that his is dangerously close to that point."

I'm not a huge follower of Perry, but I have seen nothing of the sort. Can you link to any credible evidence in that direction? I'm very curious where you get that impression.

Shrimp said...

"and the number of the counting shall be three..." Book of Armaments. My favorite book, too.


About the only thing with which I can agree (regarding the original comment about Perry) is that he is indeed a wolf in sheep's clothing. Using his prayer service as an indicator of his liberty-friendliness seems "out there."

How about using his position and voting recond in regards to taxes and guns? Or perhaps his accepted political donations and the contributors who made them? Or researching for which campaigns for president did he support or work or contribute? That might be a fairer barometer of his liberitudinessity. Nahh, never mind. He held a prayer service. None of the guys on the other side of the political aisle ever did that.

Tam said...

I'm fairly Perry-agnostic.

He's done some things I think are pretty cool, and he's done some things I think are really uncool.

I think he'd do a better job of presidentin' than the last several guys to hold the office, but that's damning by some really faint praise.

I dunno, he's just not firing me up.

Thus far, I'll probably either be voting wookie or writing in Ron Paul. (Which is practically the definition of a tautology, actually...)

Bubblehead Les. said...

Oh, we have a few months left before the Republitards Primaries start. A lot of things could happen between now and then. The Tin Man could get a Heart, the Cowardly Lion could get some Courage, etc.

All I know for sure is that the Anointed One could still get 40-45% of the vote if the Election were held today. And if he could get that many Votes with HIS record, we all are in Trouble.

God, Gals, Guns, Grub said...

Wait... so Gov. Perry shooting a coyote while jogging didn't cause the car accident at 5th and Elm street last week?

Dann in Ohio

og said...

Perry doesnt' light me up either, but his bible thumping is all about him being a calvinist. They all do that, and they all think they're going to be the only ones in heaven.

Nathan said...

Og: Their right to think so, my right to think they're wrong :-)

Kristopher said...

Heh.

The Rapture already happened.

40 people disappeared, and no one except their friends and relatives really noticed.

Stuart the Viking said...

The fact that Perry held a big "Prayer Meeting" sends up some red flags for me. My experience with people like that are that they tend to try to regulate morality. Well, I don't share their moral code and I would rather they didn't force it upon me. In my view, being a "prayer meeting" type is a good indication that he would try to do that.

Can't we just elect Ron Paul? I know he's a weird looking crackpot, but he looks to me like the only choice we have who would actively try to shrink our government down to a size that we can afford. It's not like congress would let him do any of those more "out there" things that he's always flapping his big giant ears about.

s

Anonymous said...

Pssst: Kris- those mokes didn't get raptured, they got whacked, and they had no friends and almost no relatives. Just sayin'.

og said...

"Can't we just elect Ron Paul?"

God, I hope not. I don't think there's enough tinfoil in the world.

Caleb said...

My experience with people like that are that they tend to try to regulate morality.

"Citation needed". I get that the cool libertarian kids don't like religion and stuff, but the above statement is really so much nonsense. We can compare anecdotes all day long, since I've been to plenty of prayer meetings and even organized some but I've never tried to regulate morality.

Can you actually point to an instance of Rick Perry supporting, either verbally or in writing, "regulating morality?"

og said...

"Can you actually point to an instance of Rick Perry supporting, either verbally or in writing, "regulating morality?""

Not usually. It's just the common canard anytime a "freedom from religion" type comes up against someone who openly demonstrates their faith. Hint: freedom OF religion does not mean you have the right never to see anyone practice theirs.

An Ordinary American said...

against someone who openly demonstrates their faith. Hint: freedom OF religion does not mean you have the right never to see anyone practice theirs.

Oh, NOW I get it. . .

Some people are just too cool for religion. What was that loser's name from Minnesota--the almost transvestite who said church and religion was basically for wimps and the weak?

Oh, Jesse the Mouth Ventura. That's right. And even a liberal state like Minnesota dumped him like a bowl of jalopena chili spiked with ex-Lax and chased with a pitcher of tap water from a Juarez whorehouse.

Let's see: Carter held and attended prayer meetings, Ford did, Reagan did, Bush Sr, Bush Jr and Perry has, but I'm trying to find all the "morality" laws that they wrote and passed.

On the other hand, the Kenya came out and stated he didn't want his daughters being "punished with a baby," which even rankled a lot of the pro-choice crowd.

With all these Ron Paul loons around, I swear I'm going to call my financial planner up and tell him to start checking into the price of raw aluminum.

It may end up being the next precious metal.

--AOA

westofthewest said...

My main problem with Perry's public display of piety isn't so much political. It simply shows a guy that doesn't seriously read the same bible he thumps for the cameras. It's just plain tacky.

Is this the best we can do?

Paul Ryan your Country is calling.

Robert said...

"Let's see: Carter held and attended prayer meetings, Ford did, Reagan did, Bush Sr, Bush Jr and Perry has, but I'm trying to find all the "morality" laws that they wrote and passed."

Good greif man, you never heard of the War on (some) Drugs? Been living under a rock?

Stuart the Viking said...

Og, Caleb et al.

I don't have any issues with people having their own faith. Pray all you want, in public if you want. Hell, allow voluntary groups to pray in school, I don't care. It just shouldn't be part of the corriculum.

Rick Perry, as a believer in "intelligent design", has expressed support for teaching it in schools.

He also opposes same sex marriages, and supports a constitutional ammendment banning same. All because "GOD" says it's wrong.

Those are just a few examples. I would call that regulating morality.

Oh, and BTW. I'm not really a "Paulite" either. I just see the same-ol same-ol spend spend spend crap from both the Democrats and the Republicans and don't trust that either party will show us a canidate who will try to fix that (or even see it as a problem). Say what you will about Paul, he at least looks like he wants to try.

s

Robert said...

"Hint: freedom OF religion does not mean you have the right never to see anyone practice theirs."

True. But it does give me the right that they not use my tax dollars in the process, or try to force me to do the same.

og said...

"Good greif man, you never heard of the War on (some) Drugs? Been living under a rock?"

What hallucinogens do you have to be on to connect the Harrison Narcotics act and the Controlled Substance act and enforcement of same to Ford, Reagan, Bush and Perry's personal beliefs?

"Rick Perry, as a believer in "intelligent design", has expressed support for teaching it in schools.

"He also opposes same sex marriages, and supports a constitutional ammendment banning same. All because "GOD" says it's wrong."

I disagree with him on that, utterly. I completely agree with him that there should be a ban on same sex marriages, but there are legitimate non religious reasons to support that. As for intelligent design, well, all schools these days teach Gloebull warmening, which is a demonstrably wrong fairy tale. Without a time machine, Intelligent design cannot be disproven, and rearwords-travelling time machines cannot exist.

"Say what you will about Paul, he at least looks like he wants to try."

here's something I'll say about paul: he will never be elected. that closes the door on that discussion, forever. I have great plans. I won't be elected President either.


"True. But it does give me the right that they not use my tax dollars in the process, or try to force me to do the same."

Sorry. the FedGov will use your tax dollars for whatever it damned well pleases, for as long as it pleases, until it is GONE. This includes coddling Muslim fundamentalists whose stated purpose is to create a caliphate here and force Sharia on everyone. Go to Dearbornistan and listen to the muezzin's call, if you like.

Sorry. I'll take bible thumping baptists- as much as I disagree with them on EVERYTHING, over what we got.

And I STILL don't even have any substantial intetrests in Perry.

Robert said...

"I'm not a huge follower of Perry, but I have seen nothing of the sort. Can you link to any credible evidence in that direction? I'm very curious where you get that impression."

Mostly from the company he keeps. The American Family Association, et. al.

Just like 0bama and his hobnobbing with Ayers, Rev. Wright and so forth. Hang around with radical types, and some of that is going to stick to you.

Nathan said...

"But it does give me the right that they not use my tax dollars in the process, or try to force me to do the same."

Robert, where exactly in the Constitution do you find that right? Don't see it in my copy.

Drang said...

Rick Perry has also explicitly stated that things like same sex marriage and abortion should be left to the states to decide.

When all of the "OMG (!), {insert Conservative Politican's Name here} is a CHRISTIAN!!!" start experiencing PSH over Progressive/Liberal/Socialist politicians' religious posturing, I'll take them seriously.

Let's not forget all the panic-mongering about how Kennedy was going to take orders (so to speak) from the Vatican...

WV: medwas. "What kind of med was you on, anyway?"

og said...

"The American Family Association"

Oddly enough I don't see anything the AFA has done that is inconsistent with the way freedom of speech is supposed to work; they seem to go out and protest peacefully against things they don't like.

I have googled around a bit, and I don't seem to be able to find any of their members calling for God to Damn America, nor have any of them apparently ever bombed the pentagon.

WV Czabamer. Czar Obamer.

Robert said...

"Robert, where exactly in the Constitution do you find that right? Don't see it in my copy."

Forgetting that whole Establishment Clause of the 1st there? Or are you just being disingenuous?

FIN

Stuart the Viking said...

"Rick Perry has also explicitly stated that things like same sex marriage and abortion should be left to the states to decide."

Except that he has stated that he supports a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ban gay marriage. Funny how "states rights" goes right out the window when they become inconvenient.

"When all of the "OMG (!), {insert Conservative Politican's Name here} is a CHRISTIAN!!!" start experiencing PSH over Progressive/Liberal/Socialist politicians' religious posturing, I'll take them seriously."

HAHAHAHA!!! Oh wait, you are serious... well then... Show me an example of "Progressive/Liberal/Socialist politicians' religious posturing" and I'll gladly get worked up about it.

On the other side of the coin, when Barry O started ridiculing people for clinging to their guns and bibles I was just as incenced at that. People have the right to whatever religion they so choose be it christianity, flying spagetty monster, or bastard son of bob (BSOB for short). The government should stay clear even of the appearance of advocating one over the other.

"Sorry. I'll take bible thumping baptists- as much as I disagree with them on EVERYTHING, over what we got."

Well... I have to agree with you there, if that is the only option. Perry IS good on guns as far as I can see so there is at least THAT plus.

s

og said...

"Show me an example of "Progressive/Liberal/Socialist politicians' religious posturing" and I'll gladly get worked up about it. "

Gloebull warmening.

Tam said...

Og,

"Gloebull[sic] warmening[sic]"

You know good and well that's not what was being referred to.

The point by D.W. Drang and Stuart's rebuttal (both of which were valid and on the money) referred to religion qua religion.

In other words, the MSM will never make an issue of the religious affiliation or a Democrat candidate, whereas a GOP candidate will be painted as a theocrat-in-training if they even allude to their faith. Bill Clinton could have closed-door prayer meetings with Tony Campolo 'til the cows came home and nobody in the media would say 'boo' about it.

On the other hand, Democrat candidates rarely make a big issue of religion because, ever since the last days of Jimmy Carter, Religious America has been in the GOP's hip pocket.

That's why during the primaries all the GOP candidates argue over who loves Jesus the most, because that's when the Evangelical vote matters. Once the primaries are over and the general election is heating up, the God Talk tapers off because the Flyover Evangelical Vote is toiling on the GOP plantation as much as the Urban Black Vote is on the Dem's.

Tony Muhlenkamp said...

So, what fruits should I be looking for from a friend of liberty?

og said...

"
You know good and well that's not what was being referred to."

I do in fact not know that.

Dictionary.com (only because I'm not home and don't have current access to my Collegiate) defines Religion as:
"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. "

Tell me that Gloebull warmening and the malthusian envirowhackoism from which it stems does not fall handily into that definition. C'mon, tell me that. Also, try to tell me that warmistas are more tolerant of opposing views than, say, Presbyterians.

This IS the religion of the left, or at least a powerful lot of them.

og said...

Also: the True Believers in Gloebull warmening are succeeding in forcing things like the hosing up of cafe standards, forced use of stupid twisty light bulbs, etc. No right wing Christian no matter how strident will ever be able to undo Roe vs Wade, but your house, your car, and your electric company already must follow the rules of the Environmental Elect. Who is more dangerous?

Anonymous said...

I suppose I am the only one that noticed it. You complain that liberty does not necessarily follow ore equate with religion.

Then you automatically try to infer a relationship between religion and authoritarianism.

I am not religious so I don't have a dog in that fight - but I will note that libertarians are a dime a dozen that know all about their rights and freedoms - and S.F.A. about personal responsibility.

Anyone that can't tell the difference between Obama and Perry is an idiot.

Beaumont said...

It's amazing how the tinfoil hats --right. left, and other -- come out in droves at the mere mention of Perry's name. Considering that he is currently the frontrunner, I am buying stock in Reynolds Aluminum.

mariner said...

Caleb,
Can you actually point to an instance of Rick Perry supporting, either verbally or in writing, "regulating morality?"

No need for silly things like facts, or examples. And all right-thinking people know that nobody but extremist right-wing Christians [spit] would ever try to "regulate morality".

The commenter is signalling that he's a cool kid, and some commenters here are following suit.

mariner said...

Stuart the Viking,
He also opposes same sex marriages, and supports a constitutional ammendment banning same. All because "GOD" says it's wrong.
I oppose same-sex marriage, but "GOD" didn't tell me it's wrong.

So that's OK, right?

Sandlapper said...

My question is whatever happened to Gary Johnson? Was there some serious objection to him that I'm not aware of?

Tam said...

Anon 5:22,

"Then you automatically try to infer a relationship between religion and authoritarianism."

Fuck you. I did not.

Go look up "orthogonal" and get back to me.

Tam said...

Og,

"Dictionary.com (only because I'm not home and don't have current access to my Collegiate) defines Religion as..."

That whistling noise over your head was The Point.

og said...

As yours.

Beaumont said...

Anon did have a point about libertarians. Too many care passionately about their rights, but don't give a damn about responsibility. And that may be why, in a country where a significant percentage of adults share their principles, the party doesn't get much traction. Seems ironic.

wv: comer. What one falls into, after a traffic accident, in Maine.

An Ordinary American said...

On the other hand, Democrat candidates rarely make a big issue of religion because, ever since the last days of Jimmy Carter, Religious America has been in the GOP's hip pocket.

I respectfully beg to differ.

The Catholic church (oogles of money) is most certainly not in the GOP's hip pocket.

And, come down to the South and check out any of the black churches. No shortage of money there, either. (Just check out how the preachers are dressed and what they drive and how they eat.)

I don't think anyone's accused them of being in the GOP's hip pocket.

And then there are the mosques and temples. . . And just how many synagogues send dump truck loads of money to the GOP the way they do to the DNC?

--AOA

Larry said...

"I'm afraid that his is dangerously close to that point."

I'm afraid that all he is doing is pandering to the religiosity of the fuzzy-wuzzies, just like every other GOP politician is going to do.

I have no problems with any man's religion as long as he isn't using it as a justification to help himself to my life, liberty or property.

LauraB said...

I don't think anyone will produce a giant mezuzah for Obama...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/jews-perry_591358.html

Not that it makes/breaks Perry as candidate.

benEzra said...

The "American Family Association" is, IMO, the VPC/Brady Campaign of the First Amendment.

Here's their point guy on political and civil liberties issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Fischer

The Nanny State and the Moral Majority State are equally repugnant to me. I consider myself a Christian, but nowhere does the Bible suggest that Christians oughta compel others to live by their beliefs via the police power of the state, and I'd say it makes a pretty strong case *against* it.

Justthisguy said...

Calvinist? Ugh. I attend an Anglican church. We finesse the free will and the predestination with the ritual. When the guy hands me the cup, and says, "This is the blood of Christ, which was shed for you!" what can I say but Yes, and please let me have some?

Stuart the Viking said...

Please note, At no time did I name Perry to be "Teh Grate Satan" when it comes to individual libertys. I am merely stating that, to me, him calling prayer meetings and getting all "God says this.." raises a flag that his moral compass might not point the same direction as mine. In my experience, devoutly religous types DO tend to try to codify their moral beliefs into law (and yes, that includes those who pray at the alter of Global Warming). If you don't see that READ A FUCKING HISTORY BOOK DAMNIT! So, in my opinion, it bears looking into. Which I did, and oops! Yes, he has stated support for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and he also supports teaching of "intelligent design" in schools, which is basicly teaching "GOD made the world" to our kids regardless of what religion we are.

And guess what! My kids ARE christians (I'm not, but they go to church with their Grandma) but I don't think the government (public schools are run by the government... duh) should be forcing that religious belief onto ALL (public school) kids without regard to their religion. I'm also not gay, but I don't think our government should be enforcing judeo-christian ideas of marriage. Marriage, in my view, belongs in the relm of religion. MY religion says that people should be allowed to marry whomever they love, regardless of gender (including more than one as long as everyone involved consents). Perry is wanting a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT enforcing the judeo-christian ideal of marriage onto everyone, christian and non-christian alike.

mariner: You have the right to dislike gay marriage you want. If your reasoning for doing so is other than a religous one, I would love to hear what it is. So far, I have heard a couple of non-religous reasons for banning gay marriage but all of them were either biggoted (as in "I hate fags") or disturbingly selfish (having to do with paying for health insurance for gay couples).

s