Saturday, July 20, 2013

QotD: Dueling Edition...

From Reno Sepulveda:
Then again, communications and transportation were much slower back in those days so there was a natural time/space buffer on hostilities… Oh God!  Can you imagine the carnage  if Andrew Jackson had the internet, metallic cartridges and Air Force One?
I LOL'ed and LOL'ed. That's a beautiful mental picture right there, man. It's enough to make me want to try my hand at some alternate history fiction writing.

We get wound up about recent presidents, but modern politics ensures that the contents of the Oval Office are going to be as buttoned-down and bland as possible, focus-grouped to a fare-thee-well. It's easy to forget that we've had actual crazy people in there before.

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dueling would also be a pretty different proposition with modern pistols with rifled barrels vs the old smoothbores they used.

deadcenter said...

Consider this for your nightmares: Woodrow Wilson with today's surveillance apparatus.

billf said...

Or this;Sherman with tanks and jets.

Tam said...

billf,

Um, in this dimension, Sherman rather famously declined the GOP nomination in '84.


;)

Bubblehead Les. said...

After yesterday's White House Speech, plus adding in all his past statements and writings and Policies, I really think that Barack Hussein Obama is deathly afraid that some White "Clinger" is out there, just waiting for the chance to get him.

Not the Usual "Nutjob shooting a President" fear that comes with the Job, but a real, deep Fear that HE is a Walking Target, even if he was just a Chicago School Teacher instead of the President.

Twenty years of hanging out with guys like Rev. Wright didn't help his Mindset, either. Just look at how he "Internalized" HIS view of Racial History in the United States. There was way too much "ME" in his Lecture.

And the fact that the Jury came back "Not Guilty", in spite of the Propaganda Effort and Jury Tampering is gnawing at him on a Personal Level.

And that's NOT a Good Psychological State to be in, especially if one has the Finger on the Nuclear Weapons Launch Button.

Bubblehead Les. said...

How about some Future History a la Heinlein: Hillary Clinton in 2017 with her Finger on the Button?

8Notch said...

Tam, don't forget his thirst for vengeance over the treatment of his late wife. Though I think that his bludgeoning of an assassin with his cane pretty much stands for the ages and needs no update.

billf said...

Re: Tam,1:59-OK,you got me,just got carried away I guess.

Old NFO said...

Tam, DO IT!!! :-)

Anonymous said...

Andrew Jackson:
Nuke Everybody! Twice!

Gerry

Kristophr said...

Gerry:

Yep.

If Jackson had been in office, the 9-11 war with Dar Al Islam would have been over in 24 hours.

Stretch said...

I believe where the Bladensburg Dueling Grounds still in use Congress would be much better for it.

Anonymous said...

Andy Jackson, in a fit of rage, permanently closing the port of Charleston with a nuke ....... how's that change history?

-jimbob86

Y. said...



Dueling would also be a pretty different proposition with modern pistols with rifled barrels vs the old smoothbores they used.


Considering how often people manage to miss at close range in real-life shootings .


Then the guy capable of rapidly, and repeatedly hitting the other would probably spoil his aim - so expert point-shooters who wouldn't need to use the sights at all would be at an advantage...



Justthisguy said...

Andrew Jackson was a scary badass. Famously, when somedood tried to shoot him and the pistol misfired, Andy had to be pulled off of the would-be assassin by main force to stop him from beating the guy to death.

Peter O said...

I'm pretty sure Jackson would try to get Airforce one changed to an AC130...

Firehand said...

I've read that, properly loaded, those smoothbore dueling pistols were pretty accurate at the intended ranges.

Though cartridges would reduce the chances for people to improperly load them, or leave out bullets, or the other things done to keep the death rate down.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Tam! Here's a bit more: Movie opens with President Jackson at his desk looking at a computer screen, his lips are moving as he silently reads CNN's DC Insider page. As he reads, he is subconsciously thumbing rounds into a pistol magazine.

An immaculately dressed Secret Service agent (played by Ving Rhames) enters the oval office, walks over to President Jackson and simply holds out his hand.

The President looks up at the agent, suddenly realizing what he's doing, sighs and sheepishly places the magazine in the agents hand.

"Thank you Mr. President. Range day?"

Ed Foster said...

Actually, those pesky French rifled the bores of their duelers. No sense of humor at all.

I owned a saw handled dueler made by Charles and Henry Egg once. Sorry I sold it, amazing workmanship. Sadly, it was No.2 in a set, and I didn't have No.1 or the box and paraphernalia.

A true British dueler, rather than a gentleman's traveling pistol, had a .50 caliber smooth bore and 9 to 10 inch barrels, plus usually a set trigger. The saw handle was virtually unique to Irish duelers, who were essentially nuts.

A well bred young man in 18th or 19th century Ireland simply couldn't find a wife unless he had "blazed", and they used every chance they could find to grab another go-around.

A spilled glass of water meant seconds and a meeting in the morning, and target practice usually ate up several hours of each day.

Winning made your reputation, and losing got you a picture on the wall and descendants glowing with pride over how often and well you had upheld the family honor.

Andy Jackson was a redhaired Irishman, born on a British ship halfway between Ulster and America (he lied about being born in the Carolinas). Kind of fits in with his hysterical hatred of the British, and probably started the American Civil War.

His policies and proteges finished his work by passing the tariff act of 1828. The south's large plantation owners were all deeply in debt to the London factors who had financed their families during the 17th through 19th centuries, and who were bound by contract to buy all their goods from the factors, despite the staggering tariffs.

It put a brutal stress on the entire economy of the south, while benefiting northern manufacturers at the expense of southern agricultural exporters.

Jackson was one of the smalltime Scotch-Irish slave traders who bought up run down or abandoned plantations, and he had no debt to London. He'd also lost a father and brother fighting Britain during the revolution, numerous cousins during the Irish rebellion of 1798, and received his famous saber cut across the top of his 13 year old noggin after telling off a British officer.

I'm surprised he didn't wander the field after the battle of New Orleans, stabbing Pommy wounded.

A borderline sociopath who often slipped over the line, but never a dull moment with old Andy around.

Rob Reed said...

There were two types of duelists. The ones who wanted to go through the motions to "satisfy honor" and the ones who really wanted to "murder the other guy."

No question which one Jackson was.

I've read about "gimmicked" dueling pistols. In one set one pistol might have "blind" rifling, that stopped short of the muzzle so it wouldn't be seen, while the other pistol had a hair trigger. The owner would be able to tell which pistol was which by some distinctive mark so he'd know if he got the rifled pistol, with the standard trigger, or the pistol with the hair trigger. That way either way he'd have the advantage, as long as he knew which pistol he had.

I've also read that though that both pistols in the set would have blind rifling and/or hair triggers, so I'm not sure what is real and what is myth.

Rob (Trebor)

mustanger said...

The Hamilton-Burr pistols... I don't know if they were rifled, but they do have adjustable triggers. I read an article once. You could say Aaron Burr had an accomplice in killing Alexander Hamilton. Or you could say Hamilton committed "suicide by Burr". Hamilton goaded Burr into the duel, then gained access to the pistols and lightened the trigger on one. On the day of the duel, Hamilton chose the light triggered pistol and hurried the shot which went off over Burr's head. Burr then took his time, squeezed the heavier trigger, and made his one shot count.

Geodkyt said...

A friend of mine was cleaning up a pair of late dueling pistols for a buddy. When they went to go shoot them, they missed the targets altogether.

Turns out BOTH pistols were regulated to throw a manwidth or so to the left at dueling ranges. . .

markm said...

Robb & Mustanger: Wasn't it normal practice for the duelists and/or seconds to pull the charge and re-load the pistols themselves? It was not possible for someone experienced with firearms of that era to load a rifled muzzleloader with a patched ball that engages the rifling and not notice the difference in resistance between rifling and smoothbore. And nearly all men were experienced - they hunted, they fought Indians, and even urban lawyers like Burr served in the militia.