Wednesday, October 21, 2009

Help a brother out...

Go take the survey at Murdoc's.

It's interesting timing, as recently I've had two conversations with people whose opinions I respect for being considered and informed, and all three of us had caught ourselves musing that in a self-defense situation at any distance much past "really close", we'd rather have a magazine-fed autoloading .22 rimfire rifle than nearly any normal pistol, simply for the fact that hitting with a rifle is so much easier than with a pistol. Incidentally, this is (or was) the reasoning behind the semiautomatic 9mm carbines sometimes still encountered in law enforcement work; it's not that they are more powerful than the duty sidearm, it's that they offer vastly improved hit potential at any range past contact distance.

38 comments:

Murdoc said...

Hey, thanks for the link!

And the M1 Carbine was issued in WW2 for the same reasons you mentioned. I'd like my M1 copy for defense, but it isn't quite reliable enough.

Anonymous said...

A largish pistol with a stock can be pretty accurate perhaps?

Or does the shortness of the barrel and the low distance between sights make it not much better than an ordinary pistol?
(I've never fired a handgun.. yet)

-Orc

Anonymous said...

Agree. I've seen a .22LR punch clean through a rib cage, so you've got enough penetration. Optimum? No, but still better than a handgun. FWIW, I'd peg that distance for me at about 20 yards.

Tam said...

Yeah, for me at 25 yards, a hit (and I mean a solid tag to the A-zone) goes from "probably" with a pistol to "almost too easy" with my Papoose.

Anonymous said...

I've seen a lot of people shot with .22lr rifles and pistols. Really crappy fight stopper based on their scars and stories ("I didn't know I was shot", "He shot me and I kicked his ass", "He shot me and I ran 17 blocks").

OTOH, one of the few firearms Murders I've done was with 10/22 shot through the door of a house and the victim fell to the deck, garbled something and died. Pathologist testifed that even if he was shot on table in the OR victim had very minor chance of survival.

After seeing so much, I remain amazed at how much the body can take and how easy it is to kill.

Shootin' Buddy

Anonymous said...

Agreed. I can make a pop can dance at 25-40 yards with my Marlin, but would be hard pressed to put more than half from a magazine from my Glock at that distance.

Matt
St Paul

Matt G said...

I used to play shooting games with my roommate, in which one of us would have an SKS slung muzzle-down, and the other would have a holstered pistol. At the signal, both would try to get the first hit on a paper plate.

It's a tossup at 15 yards. Beyond that, the carbine is the clear winner.

Better an A-zone hit with a 40 gr. .22 bullet at about 1100 fps, than a peripheral hit to the hangy-down part of the ear with a .44 magnum.

taylor said...

Tam, the same could be said for shotguns with slugs as for a carbine or rifle in regards to police work. Ive made 100yd hits on a man sized target with a Mossburg 500 with ghost ring sights shooting rifled slugs. I know that I loaded slugs in my shotty for just that reason.

Ive often wondered what I would grab if I had to 'bug out', my big G3 clone or a TOZ-99. Honestly I would probably grab the TOZ. Its light, accurate, I have spare mags for it, and I can probably carry 1000 rounds of ammo for it without noticing the weight too much. I would be hard pressed to lift 1000 rounds of .308 and carry it any distance.

For that matter, I might take my Savage MkII .22 bolt gun, because I know that I can hit something golfball or shotgun shell sized at 100yds the first time every time, something that I have never been able to do with a big bore rifle.

That whole thought process has made me consider building a 10/22 or the like with a can on it as my primary 'bad times' gun. It changes the game, making it more about discretion and less about fighting.

theirritablearchitect said...

See, I just can't take that survey too seriously.

The first question is, "1. If you had to choose between the following for personal protection, what would be your first choice?" with answers that range from the stupid to the insane: A- Handgun chambered for .22 LR
B- Pepper Spray
C- Stun Gun
D- A dumb look and a shirt that says, "I’m with stupid"

My answer to this question is E - NONE of the above.

Give me a good 4" folder or, better yet, a hatchet.

NEXT!

Tam said...

I feel a small and totally impersonal rant coming on that is directed at the internet gun community as a whole:

[rant]

The question was "If you HAD to choose BETWEEN THE FOLLOWING..." It's a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT. There really isn't a cat in a box with an isotope, okay?

4" kife was not one of the following. Nor was hatchet. Nor was death ray, M-14, AGM-68 cruise missile, big dog, katana, harsh language, or gang of ninja bodyguards.

You are in an empty room. You are nekkid. In the room are a Ruger MkII, a can of pepper spray, and one of those ghey stun gun things. A bad guy is coming at you. Which do you pick up? Saying "A 1911 .45 with Buffalo Bore +P hollowpoints and a compass in the stock and this thing which tells time!" is the same as going with the "I'm with stupid" t-shirt.

Jesus Christ, people, does the Oppositional Defiant Disorder come in the box with the gun these days, or what?

[/rant]

I feel cleansed. :D ;)

Vaarok said...

El Tigre and the Destroyer Carbine immediately pop to mind.

Weer'd Beard said...

That was one thing I was thinking about. I can empty my Model 60 into a teacup sized group at 20 yards just as fast as I can pull the trigger. The tube holds 18 rounds...essentially you're looking at a shotgun-style wound if you're willing to keep shooting. (It's not like the dreaded #00 buckshot pellet on its own is all that impressive, it's that nine of his buddies are also along for the ride with each tug of the bang-switch).

Certainly all the kills, injuries, and bagged game animals, one quickly realizes while the .22 LR is the little-one of the gun world, it's certainly not something to sneeze at, nor anything I'd want to be down range with my catcher's mitt on!

tomcatshanger said...

I never thought about how deep a .22lr expanding projectile would penetrate before.

And to think I am more comfortable with .22lr than .25 ACP or .32.

BobG said...

I think I'd rather put a 22 in a dangerous attacker's face than pepper spray. I don't care how doped up someone is, a severed artery in the throat or a bullet in the eye is going to slow down an attacker.

theirritablearchitect said...

Tam,

I'm standing by my position.

You even admit that you'd prefer to use your Papoose, a rifle, as opposed to any of the items that were actually listed.

Sorry, I don't really think it's too much of a thought experiment over there in that 'survey'.

Joel said...

Jesus Christ, people, does the Oppositional Defiant Disorder come in the box with the gun these days, or what?

:-} Why should today be different?

Tam said...

"You even admit that you'd prefer to use your Papoose, a rifle, as opposed to any of the items that were actually listed."

...and I'd prefer an M4 carbine loaded with Mk.262 over my Papoose. Yet of the four listed items, I'm going to have to go with "A".

Mike said...

Carbine vs. Pistol accuracy discussion perhaps explaining the popularity of the pre-War stocked variants of the Hi-Power, P-08 and
Mauser families. Or a present day stocked glock for that matter. Always enjoy copping a read here - Old Gaijiin.

Brian Dale said...

What...you mean that it's easier to hit with a long gun than with a handgun? {awestruck} Have you let anybody know about this? Next thing we know, you'll be claiming that training and practice matter. Criminy, are you trying to ruin the sales of tactikewl pistols?

"Jesus Christ, people, does the Oppositional Defiant Disorder come in the box with the gun these days, or what?"

Post any dichotomous question and somebody"s going to ask Monty for the Curtain. Show a thought experiment and ODD people will respond as if you'd painted a large sign reading, "Braaains!" across the road from a zombie convention.

Just trying to help. ;)

Regolith said...

"(It's not like the dreaded #00 buckshot pellet on its own is all that impressive, it's that nine of his buddies are also along for the ride with each tug of the bang-switch)."

True, though with 00 buck, each pellet is right around .33 caliber and is usually traveling about the same speed as a .22lr, which means its carrying just a bit more energy with it; not quite as much as a 9mm (the round shape of the pellet means it doesn't have quite as much mass as most 9mm bullets), but close.

Which means getting hit with a blast of 00 buckshot is more like getting hit with a 9-round burst from an MP5. All at once.

A closer comparison would be either #4 buckshot, which IIRC is right around .24 caliber, or F shot, which is right around .22 caliber.

Kristopher said...

Answer: I pull out my .38 Bodyguard out of my Wookiesuit, and put five rounds into the dumbass who wants to throw me buck naked into a room with a .22, a can of OC, a stungun, a t-shirt, and Bubba.



( The proper answer to a push poll is to just laugh at the pollster. )

Tam said...

It wasn't a push poll.

(Which has become about as meaningless a term as "Neocon" or "Fascist"...)

TrueBlueSam said...

It has been fun reading the comments. A .22 semi-auto rifle is nothing to sneeze at, but it won't fit in or on the bedside table. My 78 year old, 110 pound mother sent a target to me that she shot with her .22 pistol, and her .45 Blackhawk on yesterday's range outing. Her .45 shooting is just as good as her .22 accuracy in offhand snap shots. Big slow bullets are her choice, and we both sleep better at night since she bought a big bore. Knives weren't in the choices, but if someone attacked me with a knife, I would want a club or a gun to fight with, not a knife. A knife is not a tool that I would choose for a fight.

Tam said...

"A .22 semi-auto rifle is nothing to sneeze at, but it won't fit in or on the bedside table."

Good thing most bedrooms aren't over 25 yards long, too. ;)

Anonymoose said...

The author says it's a push poll. http://www.ramworks.net/blog/?p=154

Of course, he might mean "designed to elicit a response" while others mean "biased."

Tam said...

Even he isn't using the term "push poll" correctly. :p

Anonymous said...

Speaking of 9mm carbines when I took the class for my permit the small town chief of police passed around to the class a neat Ruger Mini in 9mm that was in the small town's arsenal.

Les Jones said...

It ain't a push poll, but it is a poll filled with a bunch of miserable choices and one barely acceptable choice.

I could construct a similar poll that made RG revolvers the choice of 99% of gun owners. (The other choices would be a poke in the eye, a kick in the ass, and carrying Rosie O'Donnell for your personal protection.)

Tam said...

"I could construct a similar poll that made RG revolvers the choice of 99% of gun owners."

All your poll would say is that 99% of gun owners preferred RG revolvers to Rosie O'Donnell, which would be the truth.


WV: "surlyr" How folks are reacting to simple questions today.

Tam said...

Pretend I'm a hypothetical college student. I am going to write a paper on self-defense, and my thesis is that "Most Gun Owners Consider .22 To Be Totally Ineffective For Self-Defense."

To gather support for my theory, I poll gun owners with the question "Which would you prefer for self-defense: A .22 or a big stick?"

26% respond "A .22", 44% respond "A big stick", 12% respond "A .44 Magnum Loaded With 240gr Federal HydraShoks", 10% respond "Screw you and your push polls, you Obama-votin'closet commie!", and 8% respond " Ron Paul in '12!" (This is the internet, after all...)

I change my thesis to "Gun Owners: Too Antisocial To Win" and get an A. :D

Ed Foster said...

On the carbine end of the discussion (I witheld judgement and voted the same way Tam did on the I'm with stupid thing, because it was play that game or get out of the poll), does anybody know why Marlin stopped making the .45 carbine?

I concede it needed a heavier spring behind the bolt, but other than that minor tweak it was the 'nads in terms of a useful, easy pointing weapon that had a PC shape, and with 5 grains of Bullseye behind a Lyman 225 gr. cast bullet, it makes no noise or flash at all in a buddy's rifle. I want, I want.

Kinda like the 94 Winchester. SHTF day, nobody thinks you're a survivalist nutjob if you show up at the party with a cowboy gun, it's too Americana. You're just a nice guy forced to do something rather than nothing, using Grandpa's old deer rifle.

The fact that it's a better tactical weapon than any Krashnikov ever made is a lovely bonus that travels way over the head of any urban paranoids in the audience.

A .22rf is indeed better than nothing, but a 30-30 under the bed, loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs, hmmmm... And a muzzle to stab with and a butt to stroke with if things get really up close and personal.

Throw in an hour or two of Irish "whiskey stick" fighting techniques modified slightly for the added use of the butt, and you probably wouldn't need the ammo.

Anonymous said...

Why anyone stops making anything is usually (barring weird stuff like death of the CEO) due to a lack of sales. The gun world is absolutely crammed full of examples of firearms achieving cult status after production ceases.

I have to disagree about the M94 v. AK, but only after the first 6 rounds or so. A very valid argument is that if six rounds of .30 cal 150 grain JSP goodness hasn't solved your problem, you don't need more rifle or ammo, you need more friends on your side of the disagreement (stolen from Art). However, after that first six or seven rounds, that 30 round magazine of the AK looks pretty darn good.

BTW, test those Glasers extensively. The ones I tried has severe problems.

Anonymous said...

So, how is it with penetration of expanding .22 and expanding .45?

I think the .22 should penetrate less even if it has the same shape and speed, which it may have..


It's smaller, so it'll lose speed faster(greater surface/mass ratio) than a bigger bullet with the same shape & speed.

Please, can anyone enlighten me on this?

-Orc

theirritablearchitect said...

"So, how is it with penetration of expanding .22 and expanding .45?..."

Depends on the speed of each, respectively.

JPG said...

ARRRAGHH!

I wish I could see the original poll. By the time I checked the llink provided, he'd taken the entire survey down. MY answer would of course depend on the exact question(s). If it truly includes:
A- Handgun chambered for .22 LR
B- Pepper Spray
C- Stun Gun
D- A dumb look and a shirt that says, "I’m with stupid"

- - then my reply would certainly be for the handgun.

But, even more - - Those who insist they'd want a larger caliber firearm - -ANY larger caliber firearm, then I might well stick with with the .22. If the choices stopped with a .25 pistol, a .32 pistol or revolver (non-.32-20 or H&R mag,) even a .38 S&W, I'd stay with any number of high quality .22s. Elder Son Matt G with his Buckmark, Beloved Bride with mine, me with my old Colt Challenger, Phlegm Fatale with her Mark-whatever Ruger - - any of us would be a greater threat than MOST people using anything short of a service-size .38 SPL +P or 9mm.

And, as before, a properly sighted .22 rifle would be FAR better still.

Anonymous said...

@irritable architect..

I don't think it's just speed. You know that mice for example, cannot die from falling. Their terminal velocity is just too low. You can toss them out of an aeroplane and they'll probably land ok.

Do the same with a rat, and I'm not so sure, and the gambian pouched rat, which is something like a 60cm long, 3 kg rat will definitely ascend to heaven after hitting the ground.

So, if you have two identically shaped bullets with identical speed and one is of .22 diameter and one of .45 diameter, which one stops first?

-Orc

Tam said...

We are now straying into areas affected by things like section density and momentum...

Anonymous said...

..what's wrong with these areas? Section density..
Didn't know that word before, I've been taught physics in another language.. and it's not in the basics, I think.

Momentum probably doesn't matter if the section density and speed are equal.

I'm fairly sure I'm right. I should probably just ask my gun instructor next week, he has an engineering degree. Or some the physics' prof to whose lectures I attend.

-Orc