Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Yay! Controversy!

So, the latest brouhaha is over Open Carry and who is and isn't a traitorous poopie-head:

SayUncle: Thinks Open Carry isn't the best means of gaining converts; otherwise apparently neutral.

Breda: Thinks she needs a retention holster.

Sebastian: Thinks open carry is counterproductive and should be a last resort. Like a Star Trek shirt with a hole in the armpit.

Alan: Thinks Sebastian is Zumboing himself.

Robb: Thinks he wants to Open Carry. Needs to change a bad law first.

Eseell: Thinks it's your duty to Open Carry.

Clayton Cramer: Some guy with a column. Seems to be massively against Open Carry but rambled off into a wandering rant about teh gay cooties, so I couldn't really tell.

Next on Circular Firing Squad: "Gadsden Flags: Cool, or Wookie Suit-ish?"

For the record, I've no real position on it one way or the other. I don't generally O.C., mostly to avoid excessive face time with the Po-Po and conversations with the occasional goober that can't resist a "Hey, you got a gun there! You 'spectin' trouble?" or "Did you know that your gun's cocked?"

I mean, I don't wear a cover garment around the house and yard, so I'm pretty sure all the neighbors have seen it, but I usually throw something on in the way of an overshirt or vest or whatever to perambulate about Greater Broad Ripple. On the other hand, I O.C.'ed all the time when I lived in a small town in the outer Atlanta 'burbs.

As far as one of those "Let's all strap on our heaters and go eat at Applebee's together!" demonstrations, I wouldn't because... ew, ick, Applebee's?!?


Tango Juliet said...

heh, Applebees.

I'm not a fan of OC either. Most folk I believe don't give a hoot one way or the t'other BUT as you say, there's that occasional goober.

Plus I don't no need stinkin' po-po chats and potential hassles.

Tam said...

I really wonder how many people on either side of this debate actually wear a gun like a piece of clothing; ie, they put it on when they get dressed and take it off when they go to bed.

Carry one every waking moment, honestly every waking moment, and after a while it gets hard to put a lot of emotional freighting into it; I get about as excited about "Boots or Tennis Shoes?"

Tango Juliet said...

Can't argue with ya there. The job prevents me from carrying most of the time (in and around hospitals all day) but I can see where you're coming from.

rremington said...

"and take it off when they go to bed"
You're supposed to take it off in bed?

wv: detstran- the fibers in Det Cord

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

But Wookie Suits ARE cool...

I have one for summer wear and one that has a bit more insulation for the colder months.

(wv: 'astropee.' seriously. WTF?)

Anonymous said...

"Hey, you got a gun there! You 'spectin' trouble?"

No. If I was, I'd have brought my rifle.


Frank W. James said...

I've always viewed 'open carrying' as kind of akin to public nudity.

It takes a 'special' person to do it well.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Joseph said...

I've OC'd a couple of times, once a stop and rob clerk here in East San Fransisco.. er Bloomington started asking me why I was carrying and who gave me the right. After informing him that God, the US constitution and Indiana Constitution gave all people this right, I left and haven't gone back to that establishment.

In general, I don't OC more for the goobers like him than Po Po, the officers around here are actually pretty cool about such things. There are always exceptions, but in general, they're cool about it.

I used to fret about printing and carrying and such, but after doing it for a number of years on a nearly daily basis, I stopped worrying about it. I do unholster mine when I'm sitting at the computer or TV, but otherwise take it off when going to bed.

The neighbors def know I pack and even the hippies across the street don't scowl. So maybe acclamation is a useful tactic, I'm not up for a march or anything like that, but I think if OC'ers want to just go about their business, that's a good thing.

Anonymous said...

Open carry?

'Druther not let the public know,

neither the criminal nor sheep sectors,

that a gun is in their vicinity.

At least in NW Ohio.

I'd certainly and happily O-carry in one of those gun-friendly areas of the SouthWest or Alaska, or other open spaces. I like having a nice pistola in a good rig on my hip. Definite enjoyment of the fact.

OTOH hand, performing most manual labor whilst O-carry is a PIA. Raking leaves? Not so bad; pushing a spade, pick, and wheelbarrow? Not so convenient. Carpentry & Roofing? HAHA!

And, Ohio is legal OC, having participated in few local OC march/demonstrations. However, around here, I'll warrant that a single OC civvie is going to draw a LOT of near-hysterical official and immediate attention.

Like I said: if'n I'm carrying, I'd just as soon that I'm the only one aware of that option.

BTW, for a real demonstration of Pointless Carry, check out the Toledo Blade online, and back a few days, for a bar-camera video of a shoot-out involving five people at near-pointblank range. 60 or so shots, and only the woodwork took a beating.

"Tamone"!!!?...OK, 'dis 'ere roulette wheel is rigged, ain't it?;~`)

John, the Red
West End of Lake Erie

Jay G said...

Well, I guess that's what I get for coming late to the party...

In a nutshell, I won't OC (even outside of MA) because there are still too many places - even in America - where an openly displayed firearm will get you a visit from Officer Not-so-Friendly.

karrde said...

Gotta say, Frank W. James and Clayton Cramer appear to be saying the same thing...

but the idea of teh gay raises so many hackles that I think Frank W. is the better-spoken of the two.

Wolfwood said...

Can we skip ahead to the Gadsden Flag issue? I have no idea where anyone stands.

Potential Issues:
*Alienating or uniting?
*Better or worse than Molon Labe sticker? (Sub-topics: Molon Labe vs. Come And Take It, Cannon vs. AR-15)
*Color/size choices
*Bumper stickers, or apparel as well?
*Flying your own Gadsden Flag?

pdb said...

I don't personally open carry for the reasons you mentioned. Additionally, at the risk of being called a mall ninja by Robb, I don't like the idea of having my piece get involved in a pear-shaped situation before I say so. But if a gun person is aware of the tradeoffs and has decided that OC is the best way to have a piece at hand all day long, go for it.

I also used to be dismissive of the idea of group open carry being a good PR move, but it's impossible to deny the progress that the VCDL have made. And even when Sebastian's worst nightmare came true and a OC'er caught some national press attention, the end result was that MSNBC got exposed as a bunch of pussies.

I still won't OC as a matter of habit, but I will attend the next local OC dinner.

Tam said...


"Additionally, at the risk of being called a mall ninja by Robb..."

Hey, if the side-zip boot fits, wear it. (Says the chick who's actually wearing side-zip boots as she types this...;) )

pdb said...

But I don't own side-zip boots and my AR doesn't even have rails on it! I fail it.

Caleb said...

I'd open carry a lot more, but as I said I don't really feel like getting an oral sample of the blacktop in the Kroger parking lot courtesy of the Fishers PD. Sure it's legal, but our cops have a lot of free time...and a "man with a gun at Kroger" call is going to bring every cop in the town, plus our SWAT Team and half of Hamilton County Sheriff's Office.

Anonymous said...

I prefer the "What I'm packin' ain't no concern of yours" side. Unless I'm packin' the Lee-Enfield, in which case, you might want to be concerned: there's zombies afoot.

Anonymous said...

Since this is mostly an opinion fest: I'd be happy as could be were OC legal everywhere. Folks could carry openly and I'd not be concerned at all.

But I've been a hunter all my life, and so I'm an ambusher at heart--which in essence means I'm dedicated to low profile. It's not important to me that you know what I know about what I'm toting.

Funny-odd: 150 or so years ago, folks in the east thought open carry was unmannerly. In the west, the opposite held true; folks with "hide-out" guns were scorned.


Robb Allen said...

Shit. Someone let in a mall ninja ;)

My point isn't that OC is TEH NUTZ. I *would* OC if the state wouldn't hassle me for it, but I live in Florida where I can drink while carrying, but become an instant criminal if a stiff wind blows my shirt back and exposes my heater. But I have no illusions that simply wearing a firearm is going to get hordes of people to go "Dang. I saw a guy openly carrying a weapon of death. LET'S VOTE FOR / AGAINST GUN CONTROL!"

"I don't like OC because of reason X, Y, or Z" No problem

"I think OC is the fucking giraffe's balls!" No problem

"I think people who OC harm the 2A movement" Big problem. Especially when it comes from well read gunnies who *DO* shape opinion, even if to a small degree. I'd like to know that the people I call allies would be behind me when I start pushing for legalizing OC here in Florida or at the very least, stay neutral. But to *actively* deride the effort is what's getting under my skin. And everyone who knows me should know my skin is rather thick.

And, yes, I wear a gun as much as possible. Can't wear it at work, but EVERYONE knows it's sitting in my car right now, so I find the whole concept of keeping it there silly, but if I wanted pure logic I'd tape on a pair of pointy ears and get a bowl cut.

Wolfwood said...

Whoa now...

Let's be clear on whether we're saying OC'ing should be legal or whether it's wise. I don't think anyone in this whole muddle is saying that OC should be illegal, and all support the repeal of laws making it so. It's just that some believe that OC being legal, it's counter-productive to practice as a daily casual habit.

Alan said...

Damn, Robb stole my comment.

I'll add that the one huge benefit to open carry is that it desensitizes the public to "OMG MAN WITH A GUN" = bad.

And for everyone that is scared to open carry because they might get hassled by the cops... That's never gonna change unless people start open carrying more.

Unknown said...

My general rule is to open carry when it's more convenient and I'm in smaller group settings.

No wearing a drop-leg rig when hitting the K-roger for groceries, but having dinner at a friends house? Sure go ahead. (remember folks, wear a "plastic" gun so you don't scratch the furniture! it's just being polite!)

And I respectfully submit that Mr. Cramer is wrong in his assumptions.
One of the hindering forces in the ongoing struggle against uneducated anti-gunners is that they don't know how many normal Americans carry guns!

I believe we should take a page from the homosexual rights playbook, and be more open about our "lifestyle choice".

If you'll excuse the analogy, we need more "respectable" people to open carry, and fewer of the "RuPaul/Mall Ninja" open carriers.

While I don't think inciting mass panic is the solution, How can we acclimate the average Joe to the fact the thousands of people carry guns every day with no more intent to commit crimes than anyone else?

(Spellcheck suggest replacing "Joe" with "Hoe". I declined...)

Robb Allen said...

Wolfwood, nobody is claiming anyone wants to make it illegal.

There are some people though who would rather see it marginalized.

Tam said...

"And for everyone that is scared to open carry because they might get hassled by the cops... That's never gonna change unless people start open carrying more."

Ain't "scared", just realistic.

Hey look, maybe some folks've got time to chat with Officer Friendly of the Greater Indianapolis Metro Police while their frozen shrimp thaw in the bicycle basket, but I don't. I usually don't get my Rosa Parks on on days when I can't block out some time for the potential consequences.

Unknown said...

Good point, Tam.

Maybe after enough of these "crying wolf" calls about law-abiding open carriers, the police will begin to see that the full SWAT response isn't necessary, and is a waste of money.

Wear'em down folks!

Caleb said...

Tam nails it - if I've got a lot of time, I might try open carry at a grocery store or something, but most of the time I'm on a schedule, and Mrs. Ahab would be none too happy if I was late because I just had to open carry and ended up chatting with the local 5-Oh.

theirritablearchitect said...

People with their knickers in a bunch over nothin'.

Can we all just get over the stupid?

Jeezis, acting like a bunch of third-graders at recess.

Ken said...

One-upmanship will be my downfall; I have a Culpeper Minute Men flag that I occasionally fly (that and the Betsy Ross are the only flags I fly any more).

Unknown said...

I regret that I, along with 99.99% of the rest of law abiding gun owners, do not have the time or money to deal with the legal ramifications of exercising our constitutional rights.

And that folks, is why we'll always be a sidebar. enjoying our lifestyle choices in secret, afraid of being discovered and ostracized by "normal" people.

Mikael said...

Personally, I wish I could carry period.

But if I could, I'd rather do it concealed, because it means less hassle and less bulls-eye.

However I'd like to commend people who do open carry, they make everyone else safer in their presence. By discouraging goblins from trying anything, being able to defend if they do, or worst case, being the prime target, giving everyone else some time to find cover.

Tony said...

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do have an observation. During a 3 day Randy Cain class on Close Quarters Handgun it became evident that retention of my weapon is much easier with an IWB, concealed carry rig. My deployment is slower, but not a lot. For me the question is a function of what I am trying to accomplish by carrying; and what am I trying to avoid. I am definitely trying to prevent someone else from having access to my weapon, and I think Open Carry makes that harder for me to do. YMMV, but a retention and disarms class may have some bearing on the topic.

Anonymous said...

I don't mind having to talk to the po-po. It's what I do for a living.

Where would Blacks be if no one went to sit at the lunch counters in the South? What if Rosa quietly complied with the law? Look at what just happened in New Mexico. We would not have a ruling without someone not sleeping on their rights.

Open carry is legal. I'm not even the Rosa Parks of Broad Ripple as I broke no laws.

Someone has to play pioneer and take the arrows. Besides, I'm a boy, our job is to take the hit.

Shootin' Buddy

Unknown said...

ok, I acknowledge that most of us are not willing to accept the risks of open carry.
(And I agree with most of the reasons, too!)

HOW can we make a similar impact on the normal voting public without exposing our sidearms?

Buttons? hats? shirts? belt buckles?

When I worked in an office with a "safety for armed assaulters" policy, I wore an empty holster to prove to anyone in the office that I had no gun on my person. it also reminded folks that "every day" "normal" people around them carried guns on a regular basis.

Ride Fast said...

[...] Positive side effect of open carry [...]

Andrew said...

Bah. I open carry all the time -- in the greater Minneapolis metropolitan area.

Clayton's own comparison undermines his argument. Acceptance of homosexuality has increased considerably since gays came out of the closet.

Guess what? "We're here, we're queer; get used to it" worked.

Gun rights and carry rights won't be advanced by all of us, all the time, pretending we don't carry. That doesn't mean we should always open carry, everywhere: the Arizona event was carefully thought out and staged, which I think kept it from being a strong negative.

Measured, careful open carry does a lot to demystify guns and to get people used to the idea that there are people who are neither cops nor criminals who carry guns.

I have open carried quite often in the last few years, and I have had many pleasant and cordial conversations with people who were surprised to find out that "civilians" can carry. And some of them ended up taking my carry class.

In 2003 and again in 2005, when our carry law was passed and then repassed, lots of people were briefly aware of the new carry law. But today, it's no-guns signs and open carry that cause people to think about it.

In Minnesota, we're adding about 1000 permit holders per month, net, but maintaining that will require reaching out to people that simply haven't thought about it.

Drang said...

Applebee's, Hell, Dino's Italian and Greek gives a 10% discount to patrons who Open Carry.

Unknown said...

I found it ironic that a local Nashville chain decided after a particularly bad armed robbery that they would no longer accept cash.

Because cash causes crime.

I think a 10% discount for armed customers would send a much more useful message...8)

I've seen the "gun owner dollar" stamps, but besides defacing federal currency, it's mostly ignored.

How do we acclimate the hoplophobes to reality?

perlhaqr said...

Shootin' Buddy: Ok, now I feel like a loser, having to get the news from out of state, but what just happened here in New Mexico?

As for OC, sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't. Being 6'5", habitually dressed in black, with very short hair, I'm not sure I make the ideal "Open Carry Ambassador" to the public.

Anonymous said...

What happened in New Mexico?

Well, in the '80s I was lied to by drunken natives that bears in New Mexico were like squirrels and D.J. and I hike 35 miles one way up hill both ways to see a bear in a tube trap but there was no bear just a drunken hilljack laughing at us when we walked back to camp and the Scoutmaster ordered me confined to my tent rather than having me beat the everlasting shit out of that drunken, inbred toothless motherfucker.

Oh . . . you mean gun news. Federal judge in New Mexico ruled in favor of a civil summary judgment ruling that the detention of an open carrier was in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Read about it and the order here:


Shootin' Buddy

Kristophr said...

I favor Mandatory Open carry.

How else are we going to shoot all the damned Mimes?

Unknown said...

That's great news about NM!
Hmmm... after seeing the cases in VA and NM won, and (potentially) large cash settlements/damages awarded, carrying openly would be akin to playing the lottery!

BTW, isn't it customary to use a silenc^H^H^H^H^H supressor when shooting a Mime?

Matthew said...

What I have a problem with is OC as an explicitly purposeful political act.

OC-ing with the goal of "raising awareness" or "asserting one's rights" is evangelism and, worse, the kind of deliberately in your face evangelism that, in my religious experience, serves mostly to piss people off.

If you want to "normalize" OC where it is legal, then OC because it happens to be your preferred way to carry, or it's more convenient that day, or with that outfit. Normalize OC honestly, by simply making it part of your normal life.

Anonymous said...

I'm slow today.

"Like a Star Trek shirt with a hole in the armpit."
had me trying to figure out what red shirts had to do with open carry.


Laughingdog said...

"I really wonder how many people on either side of this debate actually wear a gun like a piece of clothing; ie, they put it on when they get dressed and take it off when they go to bed."

God I wish. Two big drawbacks to having a federal job with a security clearance: I can't be armed and I can't own a decent cell phone (cameras are illegal at work).

As for Caleb's comments about being tackled by the cops for OC, you're not looking at the big picture. First, it increases awareness. More importantly, think of the shooty goodness you can buy after the lawsuit. Dan Moore has been doing pretty well here in Norfolk because the Norfolk Police can't grasp that, not only is OC legal, but "teh blacks" can do it too.

Granted, this is a city where being black and having a pulse is probable cause to search you for drugs.

alex. said...

If open carry floats your boat, more power to you. I carry concealed so as to blend with the masses. A perp will discover that I'm armed when I'm ready to shoot him, not before. And yes, there is a j-frame in my pocket from reveille to lights-out, 'cause I'd feel rather foolish if I died unarmed with a house full of weapons at my disposal.

Joel said...

I openly carry pretty much every day, but it's an unusual circumstance: hell, when I'm not carrying a pistol it's usually because I'm carrying a rifle, or in the shower. But I happen to live in a place where even the townies are okay with it. When I go to the city, I go IWB and pull out my shirttails even though that's illegal. 'Cause I never met a cop whose acquaintance was a pleasure to me. I admire activists, within reason, but I ain't no activist.

And WTH's wrong with Applebee's?

WV=restorro: That poor bull's been working too hard.

Mike/ said...

I like Kristopher's idea of mime hunting. Seems reasonable to me, but I wonder if they would holler after getting hit..

OC needs more exposure to the clueless public. They have an emotional and negative reaction toward guns because, like many things, they do not understand them and fear them. They need to meet and know regular folks who carry so that they can get over their knee-jerk fear.

perlhaqr said...

I drove past Philmont not two weeks ago. Pretty roads up there. I'm thinking it may make a good filming location. :)

perlhaqr said...

Wow. That's quite the website. I'm willing to accept their account of a news article with specifically verifiable facts, but holy crap. Apparently I should have died like, 4 years ago from my Red Bull consumption alone.

Mark K. Sprengel said...

I mostly OC up here in Northwest Indiana. Only had two interactions with LEO. The short story is they both initially thought OC was not allowed by the license. The first one was quite nice the second who had three others with him wasn't so nice but I didn't get arrested or tazed. Hopefully Hammond police are better informed now.

There are times when I CC still if I want to make sure I avoid any potential for hassles from sheeple or badly informed LEO.