Wednesday, October 28, 2009

You've got the right to protect yourself... if you can afford it.

Bob S. discusses how Texas's CHL system puts a heavy burden on the poor. Tennessee's was that way, too: By the time you'd paid the state and bought your training certs, you were about $200 out of pocket, and that's not even counting the cost of a heater and the means to carry it. That's a sizable chunk of change to a lot of people.

Hopefully they've got somebody around like a Texas version of James Rummel, doing the mandatory instruction out of charity, but I suspect that sort of thing is vanishingly rare.


Caleb said...

Indianastan isn't a whole lot better, mind you. I paid $75 for the lifetime permit, plus another $25 to the Fishers PD for the prints, so I was out a c-note before I could tote my heaters to the range.

Of course, I never have to pay to renew the thing, so maybe I should just shut up and smile.

Tam said...

~$100 for a lifetime toter's permit is a lot less onerous than ~$200 for one that needs renewing every four or five years.

Bob S. said...


Thanks for the link.

I think its good we get this type of information out.

By the way, that $200 figure is if a person qualifies for a discount.

Add another $70 to the cost if you aren't a veteran, 60 or over or make only a poverty level income.

Jeff the Baptist said...

Delaware is worse. You have to pay for training. You have to pay to put an ad in the paper announcing that you intend to get a permit. You have to pay for fingerprinting. You have to pay for processing costs. This is all going to run you $300-400.

After all that our permit system is may issue, so they can turn you down and you paid all that for nothing.

Tam said...

"You have to pay to put an ad in the paper announcing that you intend to get a permit."

You have to lolwhut?

Anonymous said...

It isn't all that cheap to carry here in Texas.

If you find the right place, you can take the class for $60. Most folks can't, so in Houston it's $100 to $125.

The standard rate is $140, baring some not too common qualifications for discount.

The the renewals cost $70 to the state baring odd qualification discounts, and the class generally drops 20% to 40% in cost.

Most of the $100 or more classes include finger prints and pictures, most of the sub $100 do not include finger prints or pics.

AND they are taking forever and a day to actually issue the license. I've heard of 6 months for a renewal this summer, when legally they can't take more than 90 days (not that there is any way to enforce that).

Tam said...

"The the renewals cost $70 to the state baring odd qualification discounts, and the class generally drops 20% to 40% in cost."

Wait, they actually make you retake the class every time? Holy crap, Tennessee didn't even do that.

Ed Rasimus said...

The Texas discount qualifications aren't that odd--military service is one and that shouldn't be deemed unusual although in some eastern states I'm sure it is. Or, over 65 which isn't unusual either.

But, the processing time is way up in TX. I called on my 90 day waiting anniversary yesterday and got told "there might be something pending in your background check..."

I suggested that retired officer, over 65 with no arrests ever who held a top secret security clearance for 30 years and has a name that is exceedingly rare (only encountered one other in my career) should be a pretty easy task to verify.

Bureaucracy, coming to a doctor's office near you soon.

Tam said...

"...held a top secret security clearance..."

Speaking as someone who sold guns for years in the shadow of Oak Ridge, it sure seems like a security clearance can bork a background check.

Tango Juliet said...

The numbers run about the same here in Nebraska. $100 for the permit. $100 for the class. Permit good for 5 years.

Naturally some say the cost should be higher. Not surprisingly, this noise comes from the Left.

Jeff the Baptist said...

You have to lolwhut?

In Delaware you have to take out a classified ad in the News Journal (which is the only one that makes the circulation requirement) to announces you intend to get a carry permit. This allows anyone who doesn't want you to get it an opportunity to let the state know that you're untrustworthy. This is on top of the 5 positive personal references from county residents that you need to apply.

While CCWers in other states are pissed about local papers printing lists of permit holders, my state makes us do it in advance.

Dean Carder said...

Here in Missouri, the permit is $100 and the required training by a certified person runs from 80 to 150 bucks. So your up to 250 clams before you buy a gun or get a different one. Missouri does allow concealed carry in your vehicle with out a permit but if you step out of it you have to have the paperwork.

Jay G said...

It's not uncommon to see MA permits run upwards of a grand, Tam.

Some towns require membership in a gun club before they'll issue a permit. To *OWN*.

The permit itself is $100/4 years; however our Dear Leader has proposed doubling it every year he's been in office.

Of course, that wouldn't be as bad, percentagewise, as the NH non-resident permit, which went from $20 for four years to $100...

Anonymous said...

"Indianastan isn't a whole lot better, mind you."

Well, it's about 25 times as better than Tejas.

Your Indianastan lifetime license is less than $2 a year. The Tejas license costs an approximate average of $50 per year.

Here in the 'stan we have no dress requirements, no weapon restrictions, can carry into a tavern for a blogmeet and have a beer. I don't know how one values that but it's got to bump it over 30 times as better than Texas.

Some day Texas may be pro-gun. It's certainly better than when I started going down there in the mid-90s. But as Tam points out, the notion that it is easy to carry a gun in Texas is so much chili gas.

Shootin' Buddy

Shrimp said...

And people argue about why some would want to openly carry, after reading about those costs?

It generally doesn't cost anything to open carry, except in states like IN, where you have to get the permit regardless. Of course, in TX or FL, they don't even get that option. If they want to carry at all, they have to apply for the permit and carry it concealed, or break the law.

I've always supported open carry, even if I don't generally do it myself. I intensely dislike gov't interference in my personal life and my rights. Permits just own and to carry are just that--interference.

aczarnowski said...

Sounds like MN runs about the same as most of the modern shall-issue states. $150-$200 or so for class and permit is capped at $100 (so it of course costs $100). Renewals require taking the class again and renewal permit cost is capped at $70 (so it of course costs $70). Good for five years.

No finger prints at least. Those bug me in extrema.

NH non-resident went to $100? Glad I got mine when I did.

The announcement requirement in DE is about as dumb a rule as I can remember and that's saying a lot these days.

Robert McDonald said...

Sometimes I really love Alabama. $7 per year for the permit, 5 minutes to renew it or you can mail it in. The price varies from county to county and is set by the sheriff. My guy said it will be $7 as long as he is in office. AL is technically may issue but effectively shall issue. No training requirement so no extra cost there.

Jeff the Baptist said...

"And people argue about why some would want to openly carry, after reading about those costs?"

That's why Delaware has a growing OC movement.

BryanP said...

In Delaware you have to take out a classified ad in the News Journal (which is the only one that makes the circulation requirement)

I wonder what they'll do in the future as printed newspaper circulation continues to decline?

Jeff the Baptist said...

I'm wondering that myself. Especially when the circulation requirement is in terms of percentage of total county population.

Anonymous said...

Texas changed it's "traveling" law a couple of years ago, to make carrying in your car legal.

The law also permits folks to carry concealed to and from their car.

It's not open carry, but when the hippies complain it undermines the Concealed Handgun Law, it must be a step in the right direction.

There are some nice collectivists District Attorneys who don't like the 2 year old law. Bet you can't guess what political ideology they support.

And yes, they make you take half the class again to renew. Seeing as the damn law changes almost every 2 years, while it's useful to get a refresher coarse, requiring it is pretty crappy.

Ed Foster said...

As far as the estimable Mr. Rummel, Connecticut has a similar person in Rodney Wells, over in East Hartford. Rod puts on one hell of a class, starting in the morning, then spends all afternoon shooting out at East Windsor Marksmen Assoc.

He only charges for the ammo shot, which runs about $70. Maybe a tad more nowadays with ammo costs.

Sounds like a lot, but by the time you're done, you've gone through a brick of .22rf, plus several boxes of 9mm, .45acp, and .38 Special.

It's a long day, but a fun one. I've pushed a dozen or so buddies through his class, and everybody's been really happy about it.

Anyone who wants to can get hold of him through the club.

He's also a custom builder, putting together competition guns for high power rifle. It's impossible to walk through his shop without drooling.

Mr. Fixit said...

Tam, back when I first took the class, the Sheriffs office in my county offered it for free for citizens.

Mr Fixit

Ed Foster said...

P.S., Connecticut, population less than 3.5 million, has 200,000+ permits, or about 10% of the population between ages 25 and 75. Not so bad.

Of course the legislature (friggin' Demoncrats) just bumped the 5 year permit cost from $35 to $70 and put the increase into general funds, but Governor Jody is a true blue gun fancier and a very ballsy lady (yes, I've met her and done some serious chatting), and we will probably get the increase switched over into range building funds.

Again, not so bad for a place stuck between New York and Massachusetts.

Plus, all permit reviews go through a firearms review board composed of one cop, one person from the CT Pistol and Revolver Assoc., and one lawyer both sides agree is fair. Two out of three takes it.

Yes, it's been a pain to get everybody through training and background checks, but now the anti-gunner types have a lot less ammunition to use against us when they're looking for someone to demonize.

perlhaqr said...

Utah was pretty cheap for me. Correia was teaching the class back then, and that was only $45 IIRC (though, he refused to take my money. I guess he liked the green chile I brought him. :) Utah themselves only wanted $65 or so, with fingerprints running me about $20. Another $5 for photos at Walgreens, and I was good to go for 5 years.

Cheaper than getting a NM permit, and it lasts longer, and it's good in more states.

Dan said...

To top that off, summer is the best 11.5 months of the year down here, so that REALLY limits what you can tote concealed. After wasting so much money on 1911 rigs, I wound up just getting a 638 and pocket carrying.

Anonymous said...

And here I thought Tejas was a gun-friendly state.
Shows how much I knowed vs what I THOUGHT I knowed.

B Woodman

Rabbit said...

If you can show indigent status, the Texas CHL fee is $70., rather than the standard fee of $140. for issuance of the license.

Of course, with the price of aluminum these days, that's a lot of cans to collect and take to the recycler.

wv- ancesty: illicit relations with deceased relatives.


Anonymous said...

In GA, we just had our rates bumped up to $60 or so, from $40-50. That's once every five years and there's no training class requirement, thankfully. Thanks to the efforts of GeorgiaCarry.Org, we will hopefully keep any training requirement from being imposed.

Ed Foster said...

pikey187, the training isn't a bad idea. Some anti-gunner starts bitching about civilians with pistols, and I get to point out that his town constable has no training requirement and gets to carry with his badge.

I had to run through the same course all 445 firearms qualified State Prison guards did, taught by the same guy, and the background checks and security requirements for a permit are more difficult than becoming a police officer.

Minority police cadet applicants can have up to 3 non-violent felonies waived, and I get my card pulled for repeat traffic violations. So who's the professional?

theirritablearchitect said...

"...While CCWers in other states are pissed about local papers printing lists of permit holders, my state makes us do it in advance."

Do we really need another fucking excuse to start shooting politicians for this shit?

[rage off]

Stranger said...

Mississlppi actually has an interesting situation. The "new" CCW permit is a hundred and a quarter, and the testing is more of the "demonstrates good sense and good character by never having been arrested" type. And around here at least, "pull" is worse than useless.

But according to the Judge, the DA, the last AG, and a few more law enforcement types, the Legislature neglected to repeal the OLD 1890's law.

So if you habitually carry a few grand (up from $200) in your pocket, OR if you regularly travel long distances (once a week, plus: and 30 miles) from your abode, OR if you can prove your life has been threatened, you can carry. Anything that does not drag the ground.

You can carry, IF you can afford the shysters tab if some small town Johnny Law decides laws do not matter. Which happens more than you might think. Particularly if you are a ...


Anonymous said...

Ed Foster: Training is not a bad idea AT ALL. I recommend everybody get training. However, I do NOT want it to ever be a mandatory requirement for someone to be able to defend themselves.

Do we then establish "training" to stage a protest or type on an internet forum or run a newspaper?

Dr. Feelgood said...

Iowa is may-issue, so it's up to my county sheriff. Currently he requires a training course and a background check, but the permit itself is only $10 (payable after the background check) and it's good for one year, if you're one of the lucky ones to get it.

The sheriff used to offer the training in house but now I need to go to the local NRA instructor, who is actually in Illinois. He'll take the NRA Basic Pistol course from any qualified instructor, but there's only one nearby. Naturally once he became the sole source for PTC training his course fee jumped from $50 to $85. You don't usually need to retrain for PTC renewal, and you have a 30-day grace period to renew (can't carry during grace period). Frankly the laws here are so piss poor that the sheriff can make you do whatever he wants.

Open carry in this state is another legal mish mash, with some saying it's permissible and others not. The code is broad and vaguely written, and it could be interpreted by judges (like the 7 who negated our law that defines marriage) to mean that any carry of weapons (not just firearms) requires a PTC. I'm not taking my chances with those idiots. Then again I work in IL, so I'm prohibited for 90% of my time out of the house, anyway.

rickn8or said...

Tam left out the best part of the TN permit renewal cluster-coitus; not only does it take the drones up to 90 days to process your renewal (and they will use every damn second of it), you have to provide proof of U.S. Citizenship EVERY time you renew. (No zerox copies of documents accepted, documents submitted will not be returned.)

Annnd TN does not have the OC without-a-permit option; if you're outside your abode, you'd better have your license with you, open OR concealed.

And today, TN's Atty General rendered an opinon that a landlord CAN bar you from having firearms in/on his rental property.

Where's the Tylenol??

Ed Foster said...

Pikey, I see incompetent assholes everytime I go to a public range. Legitimately ignorant people who endanger my life.

Giving them a firearm without training is like giving an 8 year old the keys to the car and a bottle of wine.

What they do on their own property is their business, but in public, in a comparitively crowded place? George Washington would not have given a loaded musket to the village idiot, and, in the hands of a total novice a pistol is orders of magnitude more dangerous than a longarm.

I have no problem with a mandatory "Shall Issue" process that includes background checks and training.

The essence of a conservative political stance is a belief in greater individual freedoms, matched by greater individual responsibility.

There are people out there who simply aren't safe. Perhaps with serious training they might become so, along with a "Scared Straight" type of training film for emphasis.

It's not just common sense responsibility to fellow citizens or ourselves. It's a propaganda war, and the odds are stacked against us enough already, with most of the media in the hands of discrete sociopaths.

I'm not happy that a retarded welfare recipient in Chicago or New Orleans has the same vote that I do, but that's the way it is, and at best only one third of Americans own guns. We have to police our own idiots, or the police will do it for us.

Anonymous said...

What Ed Foster said..........Spot On.

Moreover, you folks DO know that the reciprocal recognition "thing" between states is pretty much an Attorneys General "mine is better than yours" pissing contest, don't you? If your state doesn't require training and mine does, neither one of us gets to carry in the other's state. Not a problem for the stay-at-home types, but a real pain for those of us who have children/grandchildren in other states that we like to visit.

JCD in Kansas

Dixie said...

"You have to pay to put an ad in the paper announcing that you intend to get a permit."

Or I could simply walk around with a T shirt on that said "Mug me, I'm Irish!" So, the solution to the problem of stolen guns is to have owners advertise they own guns?

Roberta X said...

JCD: not true in Indiana! Our carry law recognizes any valid permit -- not just from other states but from other countries, as well.

I think we ought to recognize the IL FOID card as a carry permit, too.

Jeff the Baptist said...

Moreover, you folks DO know that the reciprocal recognition "thing" between states is pretty much an Attorneys General "mine is better than yours" pissing contest, don't you?

This is mostly true, but Delaware does have a reciprocity law on the books now. If a state recognizes ours, we recognize theirs.

Anonymous said...

"If your state doesn't require training and mine does, neither one of us gets to carry in the other's state."

Maybe if the state is not pro-gun, but not true in every state. E.g., in Indiana under I.C. 35-47-2-21(b) Indiana, as Roberta sez, recognizes all states and foreign countries regardless of training (what is the training requirement in Zambia?).

So, carry away in Indiana, we love everyone. :-)

"I have no problem with a mandatory "Shall Issue" process that includes background checks and training."

I'm just Wookie enough to have a problem with barriers to entry on a constitutional right. Indiana has no training requirement by statute, yet has no problems that concern you. However education is part of the gun culture here. It is cool to go to gun skul here.

Internal controls always trump external controls.

Shootin' Buddy

Fiftycal said...

Well, in Texas you can carry into a restaurant, not a "bar". But if the restaurant serves alcohol, you can have some. You just can't be "intoxicated". And with the 5 year renewal, we don't have to have a "background check". So, no NICS record. And now, you can carry in your car without a license. And it's always been you could carry a long gun. I carried a pistol grip 12 ga before the concealed carry happened. And if you are on "welfare", the state will cut you a break on the license cost. Never seen anyone try that for some reason.

Rick R. said...

I love training. It's a really good idea. VOLUNTARILY.

The only problem with mandatory training is what Ed Foster HIMSELF pointed out.

It's real easy to change "Shall Issue" to "May Issue" by simply raising the "training requirementes" to a level ridiculously higher than actual sworn officers have to meet.

If you want to include a sheet on lethal force use and the law attached to the permit application, with legalese stating that signbing and submitting the app indicates you have read and understand the info brief? Fine.

But I can design a "mandatory" safety course requirement that sounds very innocuous, yet gives 100% discression in awarding permits by adding ONE line: "Applicant must demonstrate safe competance."

BINGO! Any instructor can now flunk ANY applicant for any reason he likes, becuase he's covered by the vague standard.

Or should the exact cirriculum of teh trianing course, down to range, target style, course of fire, and actual questions asked on teh test, be legislated?

Once you accept the "mandatory safety training" requirement, you've effectively ceased to be a "Shall Issue" state -- at best, you're a "May Issue" with very liberal (traditional meaning) issue policies.

Ed Foster said...

Rick R:
They're always going to be trying to take away our right to carry. That's a seperate problem that can only be addressed by constant vigilance and staying politically active.

Here in Connecticut, lefty legislators go through everything we do and try to make it more difficult to accomplish. Then we have hearings up at the state capitol, and swarm the buggers.

When needed, the Connecticut Pistol and Revolver Association and the NRA file suit, and we get back our reasonable laws and training standards. It is a constant struggle, and it always will be.

But, you can not put guns into untrained hands. At all. Never. It's insanity!

Innocent people die, and the majority of voters who don't own guns will think that we're all crazies and disarm us.

"Oh, they'll never get my guns, I'll bury them first". Good for you. And your kids won't grow up knowing anything about them, and you won't have any place to practice, or the fresh ammunition needed to be used in them.

And your brainwashed kids will think you're a crazy, all because you went super "libertarian" and made the gun owners look like we were all whack jobs.

If they jack the requirements up to an unreasonable level, you go to the hearings and get them cranked back down again.

Make it plain the politicians are out of work the next election if they try to screw with us by messing with truly reasonable standards.

That is the only way we'll keep our guns, or any of our freedoms. It's called constant vigilance, and putting some work into it.

I know a guy who walked over to a neighbor's garage one Saturday morning, emptied 18 rounds of .22 hollowpoint into said neighbor, then reloaded and did it again, because "God told him to do it".

Do you say" not crazies and people under 18"? Who determines what "crazy " is? Another way "They" can disarm us, if we let them.

Just don't let them. It's as simple as that, and it has nothing to do with the core issue of wether or not we should require people to prove some kind of competence or maturity before we let them play with loaded weapons around other people. That has nothing to do with politics.

There is no way we can "police ourselves". What do you do, get five guys together and beat the crap out of anybody who's had an accidental discharge? Now we're not only "Gun Nuts" in the media, we're "Vigilantes". Thanks a lot.

Are you going to try to correct the weapons handling skills of some half drunk doofus in the woods during deer season? Good luck friend.

A contemptuous remark at best, a "Geez officer, he sure looked like a deer in that bush" at worst.

A few years ago I came across a full platoon of Hartford CT firemen laid out along a ridge west of Ascutney Vermont, waiting for first light on opening day. Every single one of them was stinking drunk, and they offered me some of the Old Mister Boston flavored brandy they were passing back and forth.

I really didn't think any commentary I could make would be useful, so I got as far away as possible. When they opened up, it sounded like the battle of the bulge part two.

There are ignorant people, and there are crazy people. We can't do anything about the crazies, but we can do something to educate the ignorant, and it gives us the intellectual high ground in the firearms debate with the lefties.

Try to get a hunting license in all but 4 or 5 states without mandatory safety training. And it's paid of brilliantly. Per capita, the hunting death rate has dropped almost 80%. Pistols are a lot harder to controll than a rifle.

Adam - K3CAN said...

I can't believe the requirements in some sates.

Here in NH ("Live Free or Die"), things are a breeze.
The TOTAL cost is $10, and the state "shall issue" a permit within 14 days of application.
No photo nor fingerprints required.

Tam said...

NH's application rules are pretty okay. Now just get rid of that goofy "Duty To Retreat" and maybe lobby for a lifetime permit.