Linoge, among others, discusses the glaring idiocy of the latest antigun nonsense statement, "Fact: Every criminal was once law abiding citizen[sic]" which as an argument is a giant logical goose-egg. Every Nazi dictator was once a baby, too, but that doesn't mean we should chuck them all out with the bathwater just to eliminate the possibility of future Nazi dictators.
However, there have been studies done that point out that, except for the rare nutcase who "just snaps" one day or the honest-to-god "crime of passion", the overwhelmingly vast majority of convicted murderers have long criminal records before they ever get put away for homicide. It's a rare killer who first meets the cops over a cooling body; they're often already on a first-name basis with the local constabulary and nobody's very shocked that "ol' so-and-so finally up and shot somebody."
(Among my readers here, there are enough cops, as well as lawyers who play on offense, defense, or special teams, that hopefully somebody's memory will get jogged enough that I can find a link. I first read the study in the mid-'90s...)
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Just looking through the news archives over the past few weeks at murders committed will show the perps have a criminal history.
Gasps and utterances! Law and Order is lying to me?
OFFICER ICE T WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Tam,
You are indeed correct. You might try http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Elliott1.htm (it's a trifle long-winded). Or Kleck and Bordua's study http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndBordua.htm or Kates,et al with this study http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html
Or even better, http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html which includes links to all the studies that I mentioned as well as many others along with summaries which belie the notion that most gun homicides are committed by previously law abiding citizens.
The problem lies with the term "gun homicide". While Joe Average Citizen equates the term "homicide" with foul play, in fact it refers to the death of a person by other than natural causes in the legal system, thus most "gun homicide" statistics include suicides, accidents, and justifiable homicides by police and citizens shooting in self defense. Heck, when you include those figures it tends to skew things but not even close to the point that most "gun homicides" are committed by previously law abiding citizens. If they were, it might indicate that we were winning out over the bad guys.
I recall a Don B. Kates, dead tree, article that I use to quote.
IIRC murders average 4 felony convictions before they commit murder.
Every one of them was once a child, as well. So let's sterilize everybody!
[/sarcasm]
gunfacts.iinfo has lots of good info, downloadable in .pdf.
Thanks for taking the time to address one of the many logical fallacies permeating that pathetic webpage... I thought about trying to dive in myself, but realized that the amount of typing necessary would just be absurd.
They quote so much disproven, suspect, and outright fallacious bullshit, I really have to wonder if this is a complete red-herring play to get us to overextend somehow in response.
How many convictions a typical murderer has depends on the study.
The range is 2.8 to 7.2, and the variation in result depends on whether or not juvenile crimes are included in the total.
A typical killer has 3.1+ juvenile convictions, 2.8+ convictions as an adult, and is typically either a rival in crime or a partner in crime with the victim.
Yes, a typical murderer was once a law abiding infant.
Stranger
I knew babies wuz trouble.
Anecdotal Story to support your Thesis: The 17 year old burglar whom I had to shoot at back in '83 turned out to be responsible for over 23 break-ins before I put an end to his crime-spree. Irony is, they all occurred within a half-mile radius of the Va. Beach 2nd. Precinct Station. And the Cop who cuffed him called him by his first name when he was Mirandizing him. Guess he had enough prior run-ins for him to be such a close, personal friend.
When we got to trial, the Judge was NOT happy that the punk was roaming around loose, and gave him a year in the Cooler for what he did to me alone, and was clearing his bench schedule to try him for all the other crimes that they had evidence. And he told the DA that he expected some answers from the Police on WHY they never caught him.
To ague with those people to talk to a tree. The tree listens.
They are all about the big lie, I've said that many time over the last few years. That and they are using the sound byte approach to it in that even if the fragment is illogical _it_MUST be_correct_.
Foo on them all.
Eck!
Sean at "An NC Gun Blog" has been posting on various shootings in the Raleigh Durham area of North Carolina...and attaching the criminal records of those involved...interesting reading illustrate this point
A kid I grew up with was a lying little hood. He finally graduated to 2nd degree murder. Shot a guy.
Linoge, please don't write "pathetic" when you obviously mean "pitiable." Don't abuse our language, the English language, the best one ever to exist. You're welcome.
I recall reading on an HBD kinda site lately, that about 75% of men have had murderous thoughts from time to time, and teh wimminz, too, have also imagined that, but only 50 or 60 percent of them.
Most people who have a murderous thought obviously never act on it; otherwise we really would have blood running in the streets.
3: pitifully inferior or inadequate [the restaurant's pathetic service]
4: absurd, laughable [a pathetic costume]
Please don't tell people what they mean when they obviously wrote what they mean; it is rude, inconsiderate, and just plain stupid. You're welcome.
Stranger: "Yes, a typical murderer was once a law abiding infant."
Infants and toddlers are only law-abiding in the sense of being physically incapable of lawbreaking. Until their parents teach them otherwise, they are utterly self-centered and amoral.
With modern life saving in place, it's more like "Ol' so-and-so finally killed somebody".
Oddly enough I currently have an innocent shooting victim whom I prosecuted successfully for murder in the first year of my career.
So, by that argument, every law abiding citizen should be locked up.
1) So they don't provide unfortunate victims for the criminals,
and
2) So they don't later *become* criminals.
Perhaps the anti-gun crowd would volunteer to participate in a bit of generational research on the premise.
But it makes me wonder, what the legal past is for those using edged or blunt objects to commit mayhem. And how many vehicular homicides involve criminal pasts. I mean, guns are a bit pricey, compared to a box of Cheerios. Most folk have to save up a bit to get their hardware, or frequent unsavory types to get "deals" on decent or even junk guns.
Ooh! And I have to wonder, what is the firearm ownership record of gun victims, vs. the general (surviving) population! Aside from those residing and working in Disarmed Victim Zones, of course, like businesses, colleges, schools, shopping malls, the Post Office, and other places established to attract mass shooters.
Linoge, it ain't my problem that other people have changed the English language since I learned it: I'll still use it the way I learned it.
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