Thursday, August 20, 2009

Important Public Service Announcement:

Much ado has been made about open carry recently, but almost all the posts are stuck on either defending the 2A right to carry, or fighting against it on the grounds that it scares people (the Left's main argument, since there haven't been any open-carry incidents that the media didn't manufacture out of whole cloth).

Almost no one takes the next step, which makes it the moral duty of anyone carrying openly to be able to retain their weapon against a gun-grab (not a political grab, a REAL, physical, grab). This moral duty EXCEEDS the morality of your right of carry, by the way.

Read, as they say, The Whole Thing.

If you do not have some retention training, get some. If you can't, you might want to think about how you carry. This is one of the main reasons I rarely OC.


The Armed Canadian said...

Retention is one of the reasons I went with the holster I use. Active and passive retention to prevent a sudden grab of my weapon. You have to release the active retention and pull the weapon forward and out. It won't come free unless you're drawing from the insert direction. Much better than a passive-only like a Fobus.

But someone intent on getting my gun will be able to. I've done a little retention training so I have some degree of confidence of keeping possession of my gun in a one-on-one situation.

I chose my holster specifically because of open carry requirements in Virginia. I wanted to ensure I maintained positive control of my firearm at all times. My gun will not "fall out" or get snatched.

Ninth Stage said...

It is not my "moral duty" to make sure an evil doer does no evil. Retention training may be a good idea but pffft on telling other folks what their "moral duty" is.


"So we decided that it's your moral duty for you to get the retention training that you need.”

And I go “wait, what are you talking about, WE decided? MY moral duty? How do you know what MY moral duty is? How can you say what MY moral duty is?

All I wanted was a diet Coke.

Boat Guy said...

While I may resent someone telling me what my "moral duty" might be, I believe it IS an incumbent responsibility to keep my weapons (whatever they may be) out of the wrong hands. Retention holsters may or may not be a good idea,however, grabbing any part of me or mine is battery and I will protect me and mine.

Ken said...

I don't have a problem with rivrdog calling it a moral duty. He may well be right, and in any case he's not in a position to (and here's the mischief) convert a moral duty into a legal duty, and thereby a barrier to entry (think about training/licensing proposals, "report your stolen gun" proposals, etc.).

Noah D said...

I don't OC because of a few reasons.

1) The Great State of Indiana acknowledges (silently) that I can carry however I damn well please. I choose CC.

2) It freaks the mundanes less.

3) The advice of Sheriff Ken: If you OC, you've already marked yourself to the bad guys, and removed the possibility of getting out of a situation without anyone (esp. said bad guys) knowing that you're armed.

(He said it better than I just did, paraphrasing from poor memory.)

Joanna said...

The other day I was driving and notice a cop car close behind me -- as in, reading the bumper stickers close. I have several, including the Gadsden Flag and an NRA sticker. When they pulled up next to me, they gave me a look that unmistakably said "Sweet! It's a chick!" That was a good feeling.

However, I have no plans to open carry for precisely that reason. Aside from a few stickers, I'd rather keep that sort of thing unadvertised. Besides, something tells me that open carry on a girl is seen more as a dare than a deterrent for certain segments of society. (This is not an argument about carrying, just an acknowledgement of the reality that some people are idiots.)

Joanna said...

Also: I think when he says "moral duty" he means "responsibility as a sane, intelligent human being." Unbunch your panties and get over it.

Anonymous said...

Ninth stage wins the internet.


Steve Skubinna said...

I don't have a problem with the term "moral duty." If you aren't prepared to think through the moral implications of deadly force then you really ought not be carrying.

I don't open carry for three reasons, some of which have been addressed here.

One is the issue of retention (and yes, I've had retention training, and I'd much rather not be in a position where I need it).

Another is CC isn't going to cause a full bore linear freakout amongst the hoplophobes (do I give a damn about their pathologies? No. I do prefer not being confronted by law enforcement responding to panicked 911 calls).

Finally, open carry marks you as a potential target. Sure it has value as a deterrent, but I much prefer the uncertainty of CC, in that not only I but Granny over there and Joe Sixpack over there and Ms. Soccer Mom over there might be carrying, making Mister Thug's target selection much more risky.

Anonymous said...

I CC because I'm for all intents and purposes a fairly private person. I don't like the attention an OC receives. I still have my protection if needed, and don't draw any attention to myself.

That for me is the number one reason to CC.

Don said...

I noted that Kostric, the guy who freaked out the MSNBC anchor so much in New Hampshire (State Motto: "Live free or move to Massachusetts") used a retention holster with a strap over the back of the pistol. I wondered whether that was his standard OC holster or whether he anticipated the objection that somebody might grab his pistol and do something bad.

pax said...

I've had far more retention training than the average, and practice regularly with friends who are equally committed to a good training regimen.

Nevertheless, I (almost) never open carry except on private property among people I trust. Open carry is simply too risky for my tastes.

Every year, a certain number of cops have their own guns taken from them and used against them: this despite being in generally better shape than I am, despite carrying in level-3 retention holsters, and despite their regular training in retention techniques.

As prideful as I may be, I'm just not enough of an ego to think that my routine of regular practice is going to make me any more invulnerable than the average street cop. So I keep it concealed, but learn and practice good retention techniques anyway -- just in case.

Is it a "moral duty"? No, I don't think so. Is it a Damn Good Idea? You betcha!

Anonymous said...

I can't OC because I can't legally in Texas.

I would other wise.

We don't have a ton of Cops killed for their handguns, or targeted in other ways for that matter.

If the bad guys start pre-emptive strike folks, AKA, kill them before robbing the bodies, it won't matter if you're armed or not.


Anonymous said...

Tomcatshanger ~

You're mistaken. Google the Officer Down Memorial Pages with the phrase "killed with his own" and you get ten pages of returns -- and every link tells the story of a tragedy.

Rabbit said...

The only thing Texans can 'openly carry' are longarms, as Tomcats has previously recounted.

One word (or two, if you insist):


I loves me some Garand.


Anonymous said...

I prefer to carry concealed for a variety of reasons, including weapons retention, and the level of alertness I maintain while open carrying. Kind of like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Crowds add a whole 'nuther dimension to the equation.

That said, anyone trying even a "long slung arm grab" is an immediate threat to my life, and to grab my gun you've just put yourself within contact distance.

Contact distance with a Silat guru fighting for his life is not a place you want to be.

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

I (when I rarely get to carry at all, THANKS Maryland) only OC in groups of like-minded other OCers. You get the deterrent effect without the whole "target for a surprise attack to get the wallet AND the gun" tactical actions from bad guys. Solo OC's have the problems listed above in other comments.

I'd like to do some retention training and practice, but not to cover myself in solo OC outings that I don't do... for other reasons.

Rick R. said...

I seem to recall that statistically, most officers who are killed by gunfire, are killed by either their own weapon, or the weapon of another police officer.

This seems (in my mind) to make it reasonable that if you are only open carrying instead of concelaed carrying becuase you want to draw attention to teh issue, you have significantly compromised your safety for your ideology.

if that's acceptable to you, fine. Just know the risks and be prepared to mitigate them.

Because if you make it easier for a bad guy to get a weapon he can use on other people, JUST TO MAKE A "POINT", you ARE morally (not legally) responsible. Just as if you left a loaded gun out in the open in your unlocked car while you go see a movie.

Just like you should secure and hide the unattended gun in your car, you need to have a Plan B and a Plan C for weapons retention if you choose to open carry when you CAN conceal.

Now, if the local statists REQUIRE you to open carry or go unarmed, different issue. You didn't choose to forgo concealment of your own free will.

Boat Guy said...

I used to open carry a lot more than I do now, but perhaps I'm just getting lazy, 'cause it sure is easier in many ways to carry concealed. I had to open carry in Virginia every time I entered a restaurant that served alcohol by the drink. A friend used to describe this as "our outreach program". You open yourself to bystander reaction, attempted ridicule and "teachable moments" - with both citizens and law enforcement officers - much more than attempts to disarm you and murder you with your own weapon. BTW you'll find when you look into it that most of the LEO's who are killed with their own weapons were killed trying to subdue a suspect; in other words, they were already in a physical confrontation and initially trying NOT to use deadly force.
Those folks who are out there OC'ing every day are in almost every case doing all of us a service when they know the law and can calmly and rationally engage the general public - and most folks who are OC'ing "for the cause" can do just that. I'd encourage any of you who have not done so to look in at

Andrew said...

(as I said there...)

Rivrdog, could you please point out the statistics or news media reports about gun grabs from non-cops?

Thing is, I couldn't find any. At all.

It is well to be cautious, but it also makes sense to focus on real, not imagined, risks.

And as Boat Guy pointed out, cops tend to get shot with their own guns because they are required by their job to deliberately, proactively engage with bad guys -- kind of the opposite of what we do.

I have open carried regularly for years in Minnesota, and the "worst" experience I had was a very polite conversation with a pair of Minnetonka police officers who checked my permit, gave my kids stickers, and left with a handshake.

staghounds said...

"Oh no- there's a cop inside. Wait until he comes out to go in."

"Alright, when we go in- if you see any cops, shoot them before they can shoot us".

A visible gun definitely makes its wearer a target. Maybe a deterrent, too.

But it IS a moral responsibility to do your best to keep ANY dangerous thing you own out of the hands of those you don't want to have it.

Mikael said...

Random idea that kind of lightbulbed on me while thinking about this and reading the comments.

OC an unloaded airsoft or other realistic looking toy gun.

CC a real gun.

You're still carrying, you get the deterrent factor(and it's accompanied target factor) of open carry... but if anyone grabs your "gun" out of the holster, it turns into quite the practical joke. ;)

Now I'm not 100% serious about this idea(mostly because I'd rather not get that target mark), but it sure tickled my funny bone.

WV: reston

Hunsdon said...

Ninth Stage FTW!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 12:49 PM -

Being killed by your own gun is not the same as being killed for your gun.

As for cops being killed by their own gun, more cops are killed in automobile related incidents. How many of those Officer Down Memorial Pages are due to car crashes or being run over? Lots of them.

In South Africa LEO's are targeted FOR their handguns. In the US, they are targeted because they are cops trying to actively stop the bad guys.

That's a huge differnce.

Ninth Stage said...

"What isn't a moral imperative these days?"