Thursday, May 29, 2014

"Non-Permissive Environment"

I sometimes get asked in email for pointers about concealed carry, and I find that I don't have much to offer on the topic, as I rarely actually do concealed-type concealed. I carry a service-size auto pistol and throw a gun burkha on over it more to stop strangers from starting idiotic conversations in checkout lines than to smuggle the gun in deep concealment past the lobby guards in The Matrix.

I can do this because I am self-unemployed and can dress like a hobo if I feel like it. Also, I can do this because there are damn few places in Indiana where it is actually illegal for someone with an LTCH to carry a pistol; a "No Firearms Allowed" sign here has all the legal weight of a Doonesbury comic strip taped in the window.

In other words, I rarely encounter actual "Non-Permissive Environments" where there are life-altering risks at stake such as getting fired or arrested, but instead have more experience with what this thread at TPI forums* termed "Social Non-Permissive Environments".

I was reminded of this difference because of the weekend's trip to the State Museum, which sported a No Weapons sign at the entrance that I do not remember being there on my last visit.

Normally I would stroll blithely past such a sign if I were visiting by myself, figuring that on the slim chance of anybody noticing anything and saying something (and nobody ever has,) getting tossed out would be almost as fun as seeing the rest of the exhibits. This past weekend I wasn't by myself, but rather with Bobbi and her friend, and I didn't want to ruin their day at the museum and so I did something I've done a bare handful of times in my life: Went back to the car and secured the pistol in the trunk.

If you ask me, this is why pocket pistols and purse holsters were invented.

EDITED TO ADD: It has been pointed out to me that, unlike a city park or county museum, the State Museum is not operated by a political subdivision (see IC 35-47-11.1) of the state of Indiana, but by the state itself, and therefore is not covered under the state preemption law. Well. Well, well, well. I have an idea for the next legislative session...

*Registration required.


og said...

You read an email?

Boat Guy said...

I recently acquired a Smith 642 Airweight and it is now esconced in a "No See Em" from PCS for that very reason. Traded an LCP in on it.
The Airweight is a struggle for me though; I still don't shoot it as well as I need to. It goes to the range every time I do but on a fun scale it's right up there with the Redhawk shooting solids.
I'm much happier carrying a full-size pistol and have shamelessly used the "gun burka" description because my carry mode is more in line with yours

Pakkinpoppa said...

The mind is the weapon.
Guns and knives are only tools.

Of course throwing your brain at the guy who waltzed past security with a Roscoe (and, perhaps relieved said security guard of their own and now has a spare) may not work out the best...

Straight Forward In a Crooked World did have a few pointers here and there.

mikee said...

No gun signs with zero legal weight should get the attention they require by law. My credit union here in TX does this: there is a pistol silhouette with a circle&bar over it on the door. This is meaningless under TX law.

When I asked the manager about it, she told me that facilities management required it, but that she knew it was meaningless, because several of her tellers had asked her about it.

And that was how I learned my credit union tellers carry concealed at work. Another reason to love my credit union!

Benson said...

Any more I always pocket or inside the belt carry. It cuts down on the needless jibber-jabber. Out west I always open carried. That too cut down on the needless jibber-jabber.Just of a different kind.

Erich505 said...

Nice to be reminded of TPI - Lee, Southnarc & Co. have some great folks there.

Stuart the Viking said...

I wish I could do the "gun burka" thing. It would be MUCH more comfortable here in Florida where it is HOT much of the year. However, OC here is verboten, and I've already seen enough to know that there is an anti-gun streak running through local (to my area) law enforcement big enough that an accidental display might get blown out of proportion and charged as OC because of the non-concealment specific holster.

I can't point to a specific case, but there was a similar case were a guy was back-pocket carrying (no holster... stupid, I know) and assumed his shirt tail was long enough to cover. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't. He was charged with OC.

So, best advice is to KNOW THE LAW in your area before you start carrying.


Paul said...

Schools are the big deal around here. 1000 feet around the center of a school campus. Since I am on a school campus several times a week, and you cannot have one in the trunk on a school campus I find my carrying to be spotty at best.

That being said I currently carry a Kel-Tec PF 9 using the slide hook IWB. I am thinking about taking the hook off and using a holster.

I think I am on the side with Chris Hernandez currently. I do not want a perp picking me out before the crime starts.

Course were I of the feminine persuasion I might have a different calculus.

Matt said...

Locally we have few business with No Gun signs. Bad for business. Generally I avoid palces with No Gun signs. If I truly feel I need to enter one armed, It is a small handgun, often in an off the body carry.

DaveFla said...

"If you ask me, this is why pocket pistols and purse holsters were invented."

Been a while since I've seen the term 'turse' mentioned here... it always brought a smile.

Kristophr said...

Matrix carry: Surprise OC.

Matt W said...

mikee, What credit union? and do the have locations in the DFW area?

I've been wanting to find a good credit union since we moved here a few years ago and never got around to it.

Robert Fowler said...

I carry in a standard FBI type pancake holster. I'm fluffy enough to carry my full size 1911 covered with my 3X T=Shirt.

For dressier occasions I carry a Llama 380 in a IWB or ankle holster.

Anonymous said...

It would interesting to know if the museum staff posted the sign on their own or if they were directed or got approval from somebody higher up the State chain of command.

I wouldn't think that such a sign would have legal effect unless it was approved by someone higher up than a museum staffer.

Unless, of course, there is some obscure rule or policy that allows individual State facilities to make their own rules.

Greg Tag said...


You say your state subjects you to a 1000 foot radius gun free zone around a school- is there any exception for CC at all, such as in parking lot or dropping kid off in carpool? Just curious-what state?
Obviously a place I need to avoid.

Mikee and Matt W - not quite DFW but in Bryan/College Station area there are several financial institutions where at least the EVP is packing;at Chappell Hill Bank has a conspicuous door sign welcoming "lawful concealed carriers". In DFW at several Chase branches in Plano , numerous individual tellers as well as a branch manager have asked for CHL information.

Mikee - perhaps I need to change banking outfits- what credit union?


Goober said...

I'm about 50/50 between gun burkha and slightly concealed open carry, and fully concealed, only a trained professional would know and even he might miss it.Just depends on the venue, mostly.

For my money, because I'm a big guy, my little smith airweight in an upgraded sausage sack pocket holster is about as good as it gets. It barely imprints unless I squat down or do some other action that pulls my pants leg tight to my thigh.

I always feel like I'm taking a big risk discussing how I carry my firearms in public, though. Seems like a good way to open yourself to massive amounts of ridicule, because everyone seems to have their opinion, and seems to think that their opinion is the only one that is valid.

Essentially, dear reader... if you don't like pocket holsters, i don't want ot hear about it. i like mine. it works fine.

mikee said...

Matt W & Greg Tag: Amplify FCU, and from a quick google they exist only in Austin.

DaddyBear said...

When we took the kids to the Indy Children's Museum, I checked and yes, it was designated as "No Guns Allowed". Thinking that it might be of the "You can say what you want, but all you can do is ask us to leave" variety, I was planning on pocket carry that day.

Luckily, someone I know remarked that there is a kindergarten or some such in the museum, which makes it a school.

So now, I was in "Go to jail, go directly to jail" territory, so the gun stayed in the hotel room while I drove through questionable neighborhoods.

Guess my point is that sometimes we ought to research why an area is no-guns.